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Author Topic: Long Term anti depressant therapy  (Read 972 times)

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Offline dannysmiles19

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Long Term anti depressant therapy
« on: September 02, 2014, 10:04:18 PM »
Is it possible that my degeneration and regeneration system is promoting increased cell death and not enough cell growth? I have to face this all and really get an insight beyond the insight i have now.

I've learned so much and I'm only 20, I might want to be a psychiatrist so I can help people like all of you who are posting in these forums for HELP, a four letter word that we all search for. Ian never stops taking the call of our inquisitive and desperate moments. I owe Ian a lot for all of his responses, so thank you, again. I know I have shown gratitude before but here it is again.

I really wonder if I go off of every pill if I will be okay enough to stay off, and honestly I don't want to take that chance. At this time, it seems as if my brain is wired to have an imbalance in cell death and growth. I'm torn between natural and mainstream medicine. I won't be so torn when I am in a fog and can't get out, I owe medicine for keeping me sane.

I know I tend to think too much, but I'm sensitive and I want to know what is really going on. I want the truth as to what is going on with me. There's no more doubt as to what has occurred in these recent years, and I owe everyone who has ever responded to me a big thank you. I just want to understand it, I want to truly understand the triggers, the mechanisms, the processes, the whole 9 yards so I can live to the fullest. I want to know once and for all if anti depressants and other pills are ethical and a vitality. We were created to discover and solve problems, so maybe depression has just recently reached a cornerstone. I just want to know if I need pills...so I don't have to question what's right and what's wrong. I know that off of pills my brain goes to its original state, but is that the ethical route? or is it moral to take a chemical made by these companies to alter processes in the brain? are anti depressants among the greatest discovery in medicine? or are they not the answer, just a crutch? any opinion on this lengthy danny post?
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Offline insights

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Re: Long Term anti depressant therapy
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2014, 03:16:59 AM »
I might want to be a psychiatrist

My advice is: DON'T. It is one of the most stressful professions which accounts for the very high incidence of self-harm. In fact the whole medical profession is one huge health hazard.

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I just want to understand it, I want to truly understand the triggers, the mechanisms, the processes, the whole 9 yards so I can live to the fullest. I want to know once and for all if anti depressants and other pills are ethical and a vitality. We were created to discover and solve problems, so maybe depression has just recently reached a cornerstone. I just want to know if I need pills...so I don't have to question what's right and what's wrong. I know that off of pills my brain goes to its original state, but is that the ethical route? or is it moral to take a chemical made by these companies to alter processes in the brain? are anti depressants among the greatest discovery in medicine? or are they not the answer, just a crutch?

You might live long enough to get a definitive answer, but don't bank on it. We have a long way to go. The basic mechanics of the brain are well understood, but how all the interactions of the brain manifest in the mind is still largely a mystery.

Are antidepressants they greatest thing since sliced bread? NO! They are awful drugs that noone in his/her right mind would take, no pun intended, except that when they work they can change lives, and for many people there are no or limited alternatives. Therapy can be as effective as meds, but for a variety of reasons it isn't available to everyone.

Towards the end of his life Sigmund Freud lamented on the limitations of his psychoanalysis and wrote:

"Those who have been following our discussion only out of of therapeutic interest will perhaps turn away in contempt after this admission. But here we are concerned with therapy only in so far as it works by psychological means; and for the time being we have no other. The future may teach us to exercise a direct influence, by means of particular chemical substances, on the amounts of energy and their distribution in the mental apparatus. It may be there are other still undreamed-of possibilities of therapy. But for the moment we have nothing better at our disposal than the technique of psychoanalysis, and for that reason, in spite of its limitations, it should not be despised." (S. Freud, An Outline of Psych-Analysis, 1949, WW Norton & Company, New York, p62).

Well we now have the "chemical substances" he speculated about and better therapies, but neither have so far proved to be the complete answer, though they are considerably more effective than his psychoanalysis which rarely helped anyone.

Ian

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NOTE: I'm not a doctor, and particularly not yours, so there may be factors I'm unaware of. Therefore all advice is of a general nature and you should consult your doctor before following any of it, especially before changing med doses.

Offline dannysmiles19

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Re: Long Term anti depressant therapy
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2014, 03:12:48 PM »
So, you think anti depressants are wrong and corrosive? I thought you are a believer in this area of medicine. You think they are bad? I was taken back lol and why not step up to the plate and help people crying for relief? Yes its beyond stressful but isn't it admirable? And Sigmund Freud was a saint. And how is therapy truly as effective? How could it be for severe cell death and damages?
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Offline insights

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Re: Long Term anti depressant therapy
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2014, 06:30:45 PM »
So, you think anti depressants are wrong and corrosive?

Wrong and corrosive, no. But they are less than ideal meds,especially for anxiety disorders. They often make matters worse in the beginning, take ages to work and can have unpleasant/unwanted ongoing side-effects that can reduce quality of life, the weight gain, loss of libido, constipation, etc. HOWEVER, in most cases they are far better than leaving the disorder untreated. Anxiety/stress is a killer.

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I thought you are a believer in this area of medicine.

I am, but I'm also a realist.

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And Sigmund Freud was a saint.

Freud was a coward and a fool who inflicted much emotional and sometimes physical suffering on his patients. A coward because he was initially on the right track in believing many of his patients were the victims of sexual and /or physical abuse, but when his theory went over like a lead balloon with his peers he came up with the id, ego, superego crap instead.

His treatment of his patients was disgraceful, best illustrated by Emma Eckstein. Freud was instrumental in her having a disastrous nasal surgery which left her permanently disfigured and then covered up the episode to protect the friend who performed the surgery.

When the noted psychologist Hans Eysenck interviewed all of Freud's surviving patients in the 1960s he found that not one was better and that many were most worse for having been treated by Freud.

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And how is therapy truly as effective? How could it be for severe cell death and damages?

The mind is capable of repairing the brain. Therapy seems to work the same way as meds, by encouraging neurogenesis; see for example: CBT May Reverse Biological Changes in PTSD (Mescape article, free registration required). Exercise has also been shown to encourage hippocampal neurogenesis.

BTW-an old, but excellent article on neurogenesis and its discovery can be found here.

Ian
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NOTE: I'm not a doctor, and particularly not yours, so there may be factors I'm unaware of. Therefore all advice is of a general nature and you should consult your doctor before following any of it, especially before changing med doses.

Offline dannysmiles19

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Re: Long Term anti depressant therapy
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2014, 10:33:39 PM »
I never thought someone would call Freud a coward. I didn't know you had harsh views on the dude lol Okay so let me ask this.... do you think that it could be that therapy and anti depressants are two routes of the same coin? That they each can do the same thing but one of these two options won't work for every person, that it's actually two roads with the same result. Like I went to therapy for years and couldn't achieve the relief that I experience on the medication route?
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Offline insights

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Re: Long Term anti depressant therapy
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2014, 12:38:32 AM »
I never thought someone would call Freud a coward. I didn't know you had harsh views on the dude

Oh, mine are mild compared to some of his professional critics. The bottom line is that he could have achieved much but chose a different, arguably easier path and achieved very little. Pity.

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do you think that it could be that therapy and anti depressants are two routes of the same coin? That they each can do the same thing but one of these two options won't work for every person,

Both meds and the cognitive/behavioural/mindfulness therapies can achieve the same result. Neither works for everyone with in both cases, IME, about a third getting very good results, essentially remission, another third having enough benefit to warrant continuing with the treatment though falling short of full remission, and the final third not being helped much.

The difficulty is that in many parts of the world, including America, elective therapy can be hard to access either because of cost or there being simply not enough suitably qualified therapists. To compound the issue the regulatory framework in many countries allows just about anyone to call themselves a therapist. Many have no actual qualifications in psychology, or specialist training in CBT, REBT, Mindfulness, etc. OTOH, doctors able to prescribe meds can be found just about everywhere.

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Like I went to therapy for years and couldn't achieve the relief that I experience on the medication route?

It didn't help me much either, but this doesn't mean it can't work. The various therapies are backed by very good evidence (and a fair amount of dubious quality, but that is the case for meds too).

Ian
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NOTE: I'm not a doctor, and particularly not yours, so there may be factors I'm unaware of. Therefore all advice is of a general nature and you should consult your doctor before following any of it, especially before changing med doses.

Offline dannysmiles19

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Re: Long Term anti depressant therapy
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2014, 01:42:44 PM »
I believe that depression is like a needle in a box of needles. Some take medication because it is a miracle and is the closest feeling to a cure, and some are easily on the right path through therapy. After some time without anti depressants in my body, I truly believe my brain and anti depressants are made for each other, though my feelings can change tomorrow. I just feel so much relief on them and I'm a depressive mess when it creeps up over time. Pills feel like the driving force behind any therapy for me and what bothers me so much is this research that says they don't work or are barely better than placebo. Then what's the explanation behind millions finding relief from pervasive depressions?
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Offline insights

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Re: Long Term anti depressant therapy
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2014, 05:33:35 PM »
what bothers me so much is this research that says they don't work or are barely better than placebo.

Much of the research is of dubious quality conducted by psychologists protecting their business interests, while behind the scenes they have been trying to get prescribing rights for nearly 30 years.

This is my response to what has become the most quoted 'antidepressants don't work' study: Psychologists 'prove' antidepressants are worthless - again SIGH

Ian
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NOTE: I'm not a doctor, and particularly not yours, so there may be factors I'm unaware of. Therefore all advice is of a general nature and you should consult your doctor before following any of it, especially before changing med doses.

Offline dannysmiles19

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Re: Long Term anti depressant therapy
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2014, 08:55:29 PM »
I have a random question, its not even on this topic. I don't know if I'm allowed to ask this but its hard on me. My ex took a pregnancy test at the doctors office a few weeks or so after intercourse and it was negative. Today she took a 7 dollar over the counter test and its positive. She has an IUD implant in her uterus to kill sperm and stop pregnancy. Is it likely a miscarriage of some type? Again, this might be wrong to ask and I'm sorry
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Offline AncientMelody

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Re: Long Term anti depressant therapy
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2014, 01:13:20 PM »
The initial test may well have been taken too early for a pregnancy to show up on a test, so it does sound like she is pregnant. IUDs like any birth control are not 100% successful. Pregnancy with an IUD in place do increase the risk of miscarriage, but it's by no means guaranteed. She very well may go on to have a healthy pregnancy. Sometimes there is also risk of an ectopic pregnancy (pregnancy that implants outside the uterus) which can become a medical emergency.

I would advise your ex that she needs to get in to see an ob/gyn right away for definitive evaluation and care. best of luck to you both
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Offline dannysmiles19

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Re: Long Term anti depressant therapy
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2014, 12:09:27 PM »
Well here's an update: She took a more expensive test that was close to 20 dollars and it was negative. The cheap dollar store test ran a faint positive. But the combination of a negative blood test and negative 20 dollar over the counter test and the fact she had clotted vaginal bleeding indicates a failed pregnancy to me. She isn't pregnant, but she may very well have had a miscarriage because the IUD stopped the process right in its tracks because the uterus is uninhabitable for development for many women on it.

I was petrified, thank you for the response ancient. I felt like my world was crashing in on me. Her periods are more severe on the IUD and I think this possible miscarriage only made matters worse, increasing this feeling of pregnancy when development wasn't going to happen because of the hindrances that she has. The IUD and her Poly-cystic ovarian syndrome do not give her odds of having kids easily. I thank god for not letting this be the real deal, I am not ready. It's like a second chance at life.

But this went way off topic, sorry guys lol. It was, at the time, a major affliction; a situational type of anxiety. Something inside of me had a sensitivity towards the process, I felt this "gift of life" feeling...like I could never abort a baby. I'm lucky this time, I might not be so lucky next time, lesson learned. Who would want a kid if their life has been nothing but a bipolar fog? 
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Offline insights

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Re: Long Term anti depressant therapy
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2014, 05:52:55 PM »
Who would want a kid if their life has been nothing but a bipolar fog?

While there is almost certainly a genetic component to anxiety and depression, it probably isn't the main driver of these disorder. Nurture and life events seem to be far more important, so just because you have bipolar (maybe), doesn't mean your kids will. Giving them a stable, loving environment to grow up in will go a long way to ensuring they don't. The other important thing is not to be an overprotective parent, as seems to have become the fashion in recent decades. Building resilience is an important life skill for being a well rounded adult and that can only be developed by learning to deal with life's challenged from early on.

Ian
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NOTE: I'm not a doctor, and particularly not yours, so there may be factors I'm unaware of. Therefore all advice is of a general nature and you should consult your doctor before following any of it, especially before changing med doses.

Offline dannysmiles19

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Re: Long Term anti depressant therapy
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2014, 10:23:54 PM »
I disagree with you because despite the trauma someone can experience as a kid through various experiences, there remains a genetic component that is too big to ever overlook. If someone has a developmental process that is inherited, the only thing that life experiences can do is make the course of the condition harder or different. But the condition itself, I believe, is very organic and genetic with psychological features. It's not purely organic, but it's a major component, which explains the undeniable relief I experience on medication. I believe that experiences can effect the course of the condition wherein moods become more difficult, but in the eyes of god, I think that people's mental health conditions are just as they were destined to be. So I truly believe that the tree that forms from the seeds we have early on, is not the condition. It's like saying the beams in a building are the cement. They are two different structures. I think that mental health conditions such as bipolar and major depressive disorder are largely inherited and unstoppable from early life experiences that were different, except, possibly environment. But that's just a part of the theory. I see a more organic condition than a psychological induced condition. It's nature, with some nurture factors intertwined.
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Offline insights

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Re: Long Term anti depressant therapy
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2014, 05:02:28 AM »
I think that mental health conditions such as bipolar and major depressive disorder are largely inherited and unstoppable from early life experiences that were different, except, possibly environment.

Firstly, you need to understand there is more to genetics than simple inheritance. Epigenetics is also a factor which can be inherited to an extent, but mostly is modification of how DNA is read by conditions in the womb. The inherited DNA remains the same, it is how it is acted on which changes, and this may cross 2-3 generations. So high maternal stress hormone levels during gestation may sensitize the baby to developing an anxiety or depressive disorder later in life even though neither parent has a mental disorder, or a familial history of them. Interestingly, first born children are more likely to develop these disorders for this reason than their siblings as mothers tend to be more anxious with their first child. This was first noticed by Steven Sheldon and Ned Kalin of Univ. of Wisconsin University, Madison in the late 1990s in rhesus monkeys. They found first-borns produced up to twice as much of the stress hormone cortisol when stressed as their siblings and were up to 4 times more likely to exhibit stress behaviours.

Among the strongest clues that there is more to these disorders than mere DNA was demonstrated by Holocaust survivors who have much, much higher rates of both anxiety and depressive disorders than the general population. Sadly, these have also been passed on to their children and in some cases grandchildren via epigenetics.

Most studies have found that having a parent or sibling with uni- or bi-polar depression increased the odds of developing these disorders by 2-3 times, however, this still only increases the odds to about 25%.

Ian
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NOTE: I'm not a doctor, and particularly not yours, so there may be factors I'm unaware of. Therefore all advice is of a general nature and you should consult your doctor before following any of it, especially before changing med doses.

Offline dannysmiles19

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Re: Long Term anti depressant therapy
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2014, 12:37:13 PM »
yes, hold on I'm going to respond when I get back. I see where you're going with that.
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