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Author Topic: Simulation theory existential crisis!  (Read 1023 times)

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Offline AltoidsAndTabloids

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Simulation theory existential crisis!
« on: April 21, 2013, 10:50:43 AM »
I'm pretty sure I already know the "answer" to this, but I wanted to start a post about it regardless.

A little about myself. I have a pleasant mixture of OCD, GAD, and panic disorder. Recently, I've had the panic attacks under control (not from drugs, but from learning how to naturally stop the "never ending" cycle of fear that snowballs into a panic attack), but for the last few days it's been a nightmare.

My panic attacks are mostly related to philosophical and existential topics ("why am I here?", "what is the point?", "what is real?", etc...). I get caught up thinking about these unanswerable questions and it spirals out of control. I'm sure most of you can relate to the feeling.

A lot of you have probably heard of the simulation theory, most likely laughing it off as a bogus thought experiment. When I first heard about it, I just found it to be an interesting idea, but never REALLY took it seriously. Now, apparently there has been a little more buzz about this topic recently, as supposedly a few scientists have devised a way that they may actually be able to test if the universe is indeed a simulation (something to do with whether or not the smallest units of measurement conform to a sort of lattice, similar to pixels on a computer screen). Rather than flood this message with philosophical and scientific jargon, you can just check out these two links:

About the "simulation argument" that sparked debate: http://www.simulation-argument.com/faq.html
Huffington Post article about the theoretical test: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/12/12/physicists-universe-simulation-test-university-of-washington-matrix_n_2282745.html

Now, I'm not trying to advocate the theory and try to convince everyone that we're living in the matrix, but I can tell you that this has sent my panic disorder into a furious and relentless frenzy.

I already have the tendency to question reality (the "unreality" aspect of panic disorder peers it's head out now and then), but this is the first time that there has ever been any sort of possible scientific proof of a simulated world, and that terrifies me.

It's one of those things that just negates everything I throw at it. Any possible argument I try to come up with to combat the theory is trumped by "well that's just how the simulation is programmed". Over and over and over and over again I try to think my way out of it, but as you all know, that only fuels the attack. The thoughts that go through my head are akin to someone stoned out of their skull. "That explains why we find fractals in nature...", "that could explain all the strange phenomenon as glitches...", "that explains the double slit experiment, and how things are only 'loaded' if they need to be...". Then I try to logic my way out of it..."we are only comparing the universe to a computer simulation because we created computers from nature", etc...but it always falls back to "I'm only thinking that because that's what the simulation wants me to think"...

I know, it sounds ridiculous. Just from typing it out I can acknowledge the cyclical and pointless "argument" I'm having within myself. Normally I'm able to stop these things, but my old tactics are failing to work. I've starting taking xanax again in an attempt to do SOMETHING.

I sucks. I look at friends and family, things I love, and become even more scared and depressed that they don't even TRULY exist, even when they're right in front of me. It's definitely a serious issue.

Like I said, I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this. I just need to stop thinking about it. Distract myself. Accept that there is no magical "answer" that will satisfy me. Live life with what I see in front of me and leave the crazy abstract thought experiments and pseudoscience-y stuff to people who don't have a panic disorder. It just seems harder now than ever.

I'm hoping that by putting this out in the open, it will bring my mind back down from the clouds. I'm not expecting any sort of answers or magical cures from you guys, but whatever input any of you have would be grand. Who else feels/has felt this way?
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Online Cuchculan

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Re: Simulation theory existential crisis!
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2013, 10:02:30 AM »
Let us not lie. It is a bit of a deep subject for the average to even try and get their head around. If we were to view it in terms of the film ' The Matrix '. Nothing is as it seems. Everything we see is fabricated. Or at least that is how you feel? It is a feeling many people would have had over the years. You know. The old, ' what if none of this is really happening '. Or as another once said, that we are the products of another person's dreams. Just like we dream. We create a life for somebody else. So what is not to say that someone else out there, not in this universe, is not our creators. Having dreams that are our lives. There are countless theories you could put out there. But I think I like to accept that this life I live is the one I have to live. No matter how it is shaped, we still have to live it. Matrix or no matrix. If you give up on this life it is the end of the game. I am sure other might get your theories in the way they are meant. Think you have to be into science to really grasp them. Most anxiety sufferers suffer from derealization. That can make their world seem fake at times. Makes things seem unreal. If you add that to your theory you may get a few believers. But always remember science will always come out with something new next week. Something that will push the last theory to one side. To give us something else to think about. I wouldn't worry about it that much. You are alive. Try and live your life. Try and enjoy it.
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Offline AltoidsAndTabloids

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Re: Simulation theory existential crisis!
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2013, 11:07:54 AM »
Thank you for your input, Cuchculan.

Yes, that is the one mentality that has done anything for me so far. Regardless of what is going on behind the scenes, this is "existence" as we know it, and we may as well ride on through the way that seems natural to us.

For an over-thinker, it is still easy to spiral out of control. Since I wrote this post, I have indeed eased my mind by keeping it occupied, but I still feel the panic and existential thought slipping through the cracks. Once you open your mind to such philosophical thought, anything your imagination can think of seems plausible, and if you aren't careful it could scare the hell out of you. That's what I need to learn to control.

Maybe I just need to get out more  :spineyes:
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"Life is a series of natural and spontaneous changes. Don't resist them - that only creates sorrow. Let reality be reality. Let things flow naturally forward in whatever way they like."
-Lao Tzu

Offline imhotep

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Re: Simulation theory existential crisis!
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2013, 07:56:52 PM »
My life changed today; I now live in a nightmare. I heard of the concept of Simulation Theory.

I get fixated on these deep questions and problems. One month ago I got totally obsessed about the "Grey Goo Scenario" and today this.
It makes me angry at the people who advance this theory. It's dangerous for us anxious and sensitive people.

I couldn't believe that people seriously debated this theory and I think that is what made me freak out.
Right now it feels like I will never get this out of my head and any happiness I had is gone.

Help?
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Offline AltoidsAndTabloids

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Re: Simulation theory existential crisis!
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2013, 07:53:16 PM »
Right now it feels like I will never get this out of my head and any happiness I had is gone.

Help?

I know exactly how you feel. I've had my share of run-ins with this horrible sensation. The feeling of everything that you know being turned upside-down, and an impending sense of doom, as though nothing will ever be the same again. Good old panic attacks!

Just know that you'll be alright. Through my years of experience with anxiety/panic disorder, I've come to realize that the best way to deal with it is to find solace in others who have gone through the same thing. Like I said, I know EXACTLY how you feel right now. I pretty much felt that way when I originally started this thread. However, notice how I'm still here. I'm still typing and I didn't go batshit insane from thinking about this existential type stuff. If I can do this, you can too.

I won't lie, I still think about stuff like this, and it definitely still scares me from time to time, but it's very manageable. Personally, when I find myself FREAKING out, I take a step outside. You'd be surprised how simply getting outside, away from the confining walls of your room/house/apartment, and taking a stroll can calm you down. Same goes with a bike ride, or a trip to the gym, or going to a store. Maybe this doesn't work for everyone, but it's done wonders for me.

The type of panic that you're feeling, and that I've felt numerous times, is kind of in it's own category, if you ask me. If you're panicking about a test coming up, eventually that test will be in the past. If you're panicking about never being able to get out of an elevator, eventually the elevator ride ends. However, if you panic about the theory that everything you know and love is merely a computer simulation...what the hell do you do? Where's the solution? Where's the escape? This is a special case because what you're panicking about essentially negates everything you throw at it. Any possible type of explanation you can give can always be shot down with "well that's just what I'm programmed to think" or something similar. It's essentially the definition of a panic attack. You desperately try to come to an answer, but you can't find one so you try again, and again, and again, and again, and again, all the while you're getting more and more FEARFUL with each attempt. It's scary, very scary.

Obviously, I can't give you any answers to such philosophical thoughts as this. It's actually impossible for me to, even if I knew everything ever. Why? Because even if I said with 100% certainty, proven by some insane scientific procedure that we are completely real, we are NOT in a simulation, and everything is how it's always been, you can simply use the same thought that keeps you in the panic attack, "this is all part of the programming to keep me from knowing the truth".

I don't mean to say that to make you feel worse, I mean to say it to demonstrate the hopelessness of thriving on these thoughts so much. It gets to a point where you just have to sort of...give in. You have to accept that we don't know everything, and there are some things that we cannot understand.

Think about the WORST case scenario right now. Let's pretend that we're in a simulated universe. Well, for one thing, who's to say that's a terrible thing? Why do we default to a feeling of terror and dread at this idea? In a way, it would open up a tremendous world of wonder. What's on the outside? Maybe the "real" world is full of our "real" selves, and when we die in this world, we simply wake back up in the "real" world and can begin a different simulation. It opens up so many questions, some terrifying, some fascinating, but it's all speculation.

Science is advancing at an exponential rate. We know things now that we couldn't even dream of thousands or even hundreds of years ago. When we think we know it all, something pops up that needs explanation. Yes, maybe there are in fact some experiments out there that seem to suggest we are in a simulation, but a total game-changer could pop up 100 years down the road that suggests otherwise.

Read what this guy has to say about panic attacks: www.panicend.com

Take a stroll, hang out with your friends and family. Simulated or not, they make us feel happier. Even if we are in a simulation, life is CLEARLY better when we are happy, so why not chase that feeling?
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"Life is a series of natural and spontaneous changes. Don't resist them - that only creates sorrow. Let reality be reality. Let things flow naturally forward in whatever way they like."
-Lao Tzu

Offline imhotep

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Re: Simulation theory existential crisis!
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2013, 08:28:38 PM »
Thank you for writing this. It makes me feel a bit better knowing someone else is there who I can communicate with about this. Everything you said is exactly how I feel right now.
My panic is not paralyzing where I can't function and carry out my job but my mind and world view is seriously messed up.

I had previously read online about the philosophical argument about the "brain in a vat" and solipsism and all that which had left me scared for a week or so but nothing near what I'm feeling now.
As I said, I think it has to do with the fact that serious people with serious degrees are discussing this simulation thing that set my panic off. I'm very much into science and trust scientists to kinda know what they are talking about.

The uncertainty kills me. How is it possible to make your mind up how to view the world? Should I half-pretend and accept the simulation theory or should I try and fight it and come up with theories that go against it?
I know you said I should just let it go and I think that been hard for me all my life. I'm not a very care-free person.

Thanks for the link; I will check it out.

Take care
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Offline AltoidsAndTabloids

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Re: Simulation theory existential crisis!
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2013, 12:47:31 AM »
No problem, glad I can help a little.

Yes, I know what you mean about how credible scientists are actually discussing it. I remember when I first read about this theory a few years ago, it disturbed me, but I was able to pass it off as just some "fun" thought experiment because no one seemed to be taking it seriously. The fact that some scientists are actually doing tests with possible results in recent years is what prompted me to write this post in the first place. Just like you, the fact that it's even a discussion is very scary to me.

About the uncertainty thing, you can use that to work for you or against you. I like to try to view it as a positive. Just like the simulation argument, you can come up with your own theories that are impossible to disprove. What if we're just the figment of someone else's imagination? What if "real" beings are so intelligent that the people in their own thoughts are self-aware? Again, you can't disprove that with logic, as the statement itself just negates everything. You could try to disprove it with science, but who's to say that what we know as "science" is the real science? The fact that it's so easy to come up with crazy scenarios like this actually makes me feel a little better. It kind of helps me get into the mentality that regardless of what the "truth" is, my human brain simply cannot comprehend it, so I may as well just shut up and enjoy the ride as best as I can and see what happens.

Of course, throughout all of this we can't forget the fact that the simulation theory is still just that...a theory. There have been no breaking news reports stating for certain that we are a simulation. Yes, tests have been formed by really smart people, some results have been claimed, but even those tests are criticized by other really smart people. One argument is that the tests focus on the idea of proving that the universe behaves like a simulation, but that wouldn't actually "prove" that we are a simulation. Why can't that just be the way the universe works? The reason it behaves like a simulation is because we have created simulations WITHIN this universe, so of course the simulations we've created would take the characteristics of the universe.

The more you write or think about this stuff, the more you realize how cyclical it is. It feeds itself. There is no "aha!" moment, only "but what if...and what if...and what if..."

I know, it's hard to just forget about it. I think many people, like you and I, REALLY REALLY want answers. We feel as though ignoring these questions is like surrendering. It's like losing a battle. We need to feel satisfied that we understand something, and if we simply cannot come to a conclusion we feel like our world is crumbling beneath our feet and existence as we know it has turned into chaos.

Not sure if you've read through the website yet, but the author talks about how those kinds of people (us, basically) need to stop trying to get RID of the fear. It makes sense when you think about it. We have a disturbing thought (simulation theory) and we try to debunk it to come to a satisfying answer that makes us feel better. Because of the nature of the argument, you end up with more questions than answers if you try to debunk it, leaving you feeling afraid and overwhelmed. Naturally, we don't want to feel afraid, so we try to debunk it again, only to have the same thing happen. Pretty soon, the issue is no longer about being afraid of the simulation theory, it becomes being afraid of being afraid!  :dazed: The author's argument is that these panic attacks are fueled by our apprehension to fear, and by "giving in" to that fear, we no longer have that apprehension, and thus realize that there was in fact nothing to be afraid of in the first place.

Anyway, hope this helps a tiny bit more.
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"Life is a series of natural and spontaneous changes. Don't resist them - that only creates sorrow. Let reality be reality. Let things flow naturally forward in whatever way they like."
-Lao Tzu

Offline imhotep

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Re: Simulation theory existential crisis!
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2013, 01:45:03 PM »
Thank you for the reply!

I'm at work at the moment so I can't write too much right now.
I did visit the forum part of the website and it seems there's some really nice and understanding people there.

What do you mean by giving in to the fear?

Take care
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Offline AltoidsAndTabloids

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Re: Simulation theory existential crisis!
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2013, 05:48:52 PM »
No problem. Don't mind me, when I get on topics like this I tend to write a lot.  :spineyes:

"Giving in" in the sense that you face the fear, basically. The more you try to resist being afraid, the worse the fear escalates. He does a much better job explaining it on his site than I probably can, but here's a shot.

In this case, we try to disprove the idea of simulation theory in order to avoid it being true. We become so afraid that it might be true, the fact that we can't disprove it makes us scared. We don't want to be scared, so we try again. This is one way of dealing with the problem, but as you can see it gets you nowhere. It creates a snowball effect of fear and leaves us in a panic until we get our mind off of it.

The other option, he proposes, is to stop resisting. Quite literally, he says to TRY to make yourself panic. It might sound counter-intuitive, but there is something to it. The panic-y feeling we get is from trying to END the panic, and not succeeding. The simulation theory itself may be disturbing, but it poses no physical danger to you. It can't harm you, it can't change anything that you see or feel. It's just a thought, and idea, a theory, a possibility. Try to make yourself afraid of it, try to think of the worst case scenario, try to send yourself into a panic. If you do it right, you will find that...not much happens. Again, it's a bit hard to explain, but he does it better. It's something that may take a little time to get the hang of.

In our situation, the goal should not be to disprove the simulation theory. The goal should be to view it as intriguing or interesting, rather than disturbing. After all, you're still the same person you've always been and always will be, regardless of whether or not the theory is true.
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"Life is a series of natural and spontaneous changes. Don't resist them - that only creates sorrow. Let reality be reality. Let things flow naturally forward in whatever way they like."
-Lao Tzu

Offline imhotep

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Re: Simulation theory existential crisis!
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2013, 05:23:30 PM »
I try not to think about the Sim Theory but everything I read and see I still kind of doubt now.
I'm an atheist and I used to go to nature to find solace when people upset me with their politics.
For me nature (photographing and hiking) gave me some sort of spirituality.

But now, is it real? Say something encouraging. I need hope and some sort of anchor.
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Offline AltoidsAndTabloids

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Re: Simulation theory existential crisis!
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2013, 09:00:05 PM »
Yes, thinking about stuff like this can certainly put a damper on how we view "beauty" in the world. Again, I know how you feel. We sound very similar. I also often turn to nature for comfort for similar reasons. When considering ideas like the sim theory, one can't help but to feel as though any sort of spirituality, wonder, or mysticism is completely wiped away and replaced with a bunch of 1's and 0's. This is what really had me down when I originally made this post.

Again, I don't have the answers, but I can do my best based off of the thought processes that have personally helped me overcome this obsession.

First and foremost, as I mentioned before, everything is still up for debate. Look at String Theory. The worlds smartest scientists are debating this theory now, some claiming to have solid proof while others criticize it. Some scientists believe it is the only current theory that provides a good explanation of "everything", while others quite literally call the theory a failure. This shows that even a popular theory, discussed by geniuses who claim to have very convincing data, is criticized and still possibly...incorrect. In comparison, the Simulation Theory simply began as a thought experiment, and is still only really seriously studied by a handful of people (from what I have gathered from my research, at least). Even if people claim that they have found convincing evidence, there will always be criticism and opposing opinions. What am I getting at here? If you view the Simulation Theory as a bad thing, there will basically always be hope that it's incorrect.

I think the keyword here is perspective. When I find myself asking questions like "is this real" or "what IS reality", I stop myself and try to put myself back into MY perspective. If you think too small, you become obsessed with what we're made out of. Is everything really made up of nothing but tiny vibrating string-like things? Are we just a bunch of 1's and 0's like in a computer program? Suddenly you don't see things as they are. A bird stops being a bird and is just a mass of cells and bones. Trees stop being beautiful and become tiny particles that simply make up what we perceive as trees. That sort of takes all the "magic" away from life, doesn't it?

But...that's not the perspective that we are meant to see it in. Our human brains are meant to see things from our perspective and nothing else. Anything outside of it, we simply cannot comprehend. It doesn't make any sense to us, and therefore it scares us. Does that mean that nothing is real, and our perspective is just an illusion? No! Maybe there IS a deeper meaning to all of this, but when we look at it in the wrong perspective...we're missing it.

Think of it as going to a movie theater and pressing your face right up against the giant screen. The movie wouldn't make any sense at all. It would just be a bunch of chaotic, flashing colors whizzing by your field of vision. Does that make what's going on in the movie any less real? Again, no! All the chaotic flashes of color you see are all part of the bigger picture. They have a purpose, and that purpose is to make the movie happen. As you back away from the screen, it makes more and more sense until you can see it at the proper perspective, where it makes you cry, laugh, and feel countless other emotions.

My point is, while life as we know it may be made of unimaginably tiny things (vibrating strings, 1's and 0's, etc) that makes us feel like it's not "real", that doesn't mean it isn't real to us. That doesn't mean that there's no purpose. It all HAS to be made out of something, what does it matter what it's made out of? Regardless of what the building blocks of nature are, you cannot deny the impact it has on you. We are connected to it somehow.

So what IS reality? That is something that is probably impossible to answer outside of our perspective, but we can reason what reality is to US. Towering mountains give us butterflies in our stomach. Lush forests with sunbeams leaking through the treetops make us feel serene. It doesn't matter what they're made of, what matters is the impact it has on us.

This leaves you with a choice. For some reason (unfathomable by us humans), we are here, experiencing what we know as life for a limited amount of time. You can spend that limited time obsessing over why we are here and what is real, or you can focus on what you know and find enjoyment in what is here. Will you watch the movie with your face pressed up against the screen, or will you sit in the audience?
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"Life is a series of natural and spontaneous changes. Don't resist them - that only creates sorrow. Let reality be reality. Let things flow naturally forward in whatever way they like."
-Lao Tzu

Offline imhotep

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Re: Simulation theory existential crisis!
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2013, 09:48:00 PM »
You have a good way of putting things into perspective, I envy that and I'll try to keep these things in mind during my dark moments.
Yes, the life we have is the only life there is and I guess it doesn't matter what we're made of.

Last year I read Sam Harris' book on free will where he argues that we don't really have any free will at all because there's no room for any spirit or soul.
I agree with this but still it made me panic and fill me with anxiety. In the end I got over it and accepted that it is probably true.

This is slightly different though because there is no proof of ST being true but it's the constant what if's that I'm struggling with.
I have been working really hard all summer as well and I think I might be burnt out from that.
In a week's time I'm going on a month long trip to the Trans-Caucasus countries to hike and shoot pictures.
I started making plans for this trip last year and I think somehow my brain didn't want to allow me to become too excited or happy
so it decided to increase my anxiety by making me obsess about this. Notice how I use language that goes against the notion that free will does not exist. ;-)

Anyway...thank you for your insight and help.
Maybe we could continue this convo via e-mail or by other means?
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Offline Lunatone

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Re: Simulation theory existential crisis!
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2013, 10:30:19 PM »
Even if we were simulated, it wouldnt matter. from our point of view, being a simulation and being 'real' would look identical.
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Offline togepi567

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Re: Simulation theory existential crisis!
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2013, 01:26:20 AM »
Even if we were simulated, it wouldnt matter. from our point of view, being a simulation and being 'real' would look identical.

Indeed. The word "simulation" is a concept created by your mind. There's no difference between "real" and "simulation."

It's just derealization though. The key to dealing with anxiety is to not focus on it. However, that doesn't mean you *intentionally* try to not focus on it. Essentially, don't try to solve the way you feel. These days, research suggests that psychological issues often arise because we are consistently attending to how we feel.

If you want, you can focus on this to the point where free will seems to completely disappear and you feel like a robot... where things are just happening to you but there's no "operator" controlling the construct.

Here's what I think: we're not as smart as we think we are. A lot of human concepts are overly simplified and don't capture the complexity of what's actually going on. The psychological concept of "reality" is pretty useless. The same goes for countless other words/ideas. They're often very vague and lack the detail the formulates a clearer picture of the universe. Another good one is the idea of the "self" or "God" (particularly in the monotheistic sense). These ideas are actually not well connected to the physical world. They're just an attempt through language to describe something we don't have a very good understanding of.
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