Chat Now!   Member Gallery    Member Articles    Games   Member Groups   Member Blogs   Health News    Bored?

Author Topic: Is Robert DuPont's "lifetime steady dose of benzos" total nonsense?  (Read 698 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline NeverAgain2

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
  • Rec's: 4
  • Gender: Male
  • Personal text
    • Poke This Member
Re: Is Robert DuPont's "lifetime steady dose of benzos" total nonsense?
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2014, 12:52:11 PM »

But benzo-users & benzo-withdrawers have real, felt bodily symptoms and side fx beyond just rebound anxiety. Many develop insomnia, loss of creativity or emotion, memory problems, tinnitus & hearing issues, body pains, depression, depersonalization, the list goes on...so BZDs must be screwing with some part of the brain or perhaps the thousands of receptors not in the brain. I sure you are aware there are GABA/BZ receptors throughout the gastrointestinal tract and most other organs in the body.

So it's good to see scientific proof that tolerance & rebound anxiety is not a simple case of the benzos knocking out some permanent receptors that then need to "relearn" how to operate properly. But it still leaves much unexplained, and seems to leave BZDs in the category of drugs that could give many people some real bad problems, not the "quite safe" category.
Bookmark and Share

Offline sethman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Country: us
  • Rec's: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • Mood: Thoughtful
    Thoughtful
  • Identified with my Mind; working on Awakening
    • Poke This Member
Re: Is Robert DuPont's "lifetime steady dose of benzos" total nonsense?
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2014, 01:58:35 PM »
NeverAgain I see you quoted me, thanks, but didn't add your own response. Was that intentional, just to repeat me, or did you mean to say something about that?

After my last response to Ian's well researched reply, I thought to add..

It must be noted that many GAD sufferers report those same symptoms before taking drugs - I certainly had the anxiety, depression, depersonalization and sleep disturbances before ever using benzos. All those symptoms, even complaints of pains, fibromyalgia, and constant flu-like symptoms, are all part of the GAD profile. And you did say these were awful drugs that no one would or should take, if it weren't for the fact that they're the best we've currently got. So...

Frotob, you seemed to indicate you are definitely experiencing some symptoms you were not having before using Valium & getting lost in the Valium-taper weeds. Personally, I haven't had any new symptom since taking/discontinuing Klonopin beyond the same anxiety & sleep disturbance I had before starting. I now get terrible fatigue & body anxiety at bedtime...don't know why, but I don't think it's because of the small intermittent amount of Klonopin I ingested over 14 years - about 50-60 mg total, or an average of .01 mg per day.
Bookmark and Share
There is nothing out of order in the Universe...except maybe me :-)

Offline comoso

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 157
  • Rec's: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • Personal text
    • Poke This Member
Re: Is Robert DuPont's "lifetime steady dose of benzos" total nonsense?
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2014, 07:01:28 PM »
Personally, I haven't had any new symptom since taking/discontinuing Klonopin beyond the same anxiety & sleep disturbance I had before starting. I now get terrible fatigue & body anxiety at bedtime...don't know why, but I don't think it's because of the small intermittent amount of Klonopin I ingested over 14 years - about 50-60 mg total, or an average of .01 mg per day.

Well, I've been on .5-1 mg per day for over 6 months and 5 months of .5-1.5 mg xanax daily before that.  If you're screwed because of the minuscule amount you've taken I might as well end it for myself.  1 year ago, I had a nervous breakdown.  Call it anxiety, call it neurosis, call it what you want.  Simple fact is my nervous system broke and I went from being a guy that could work 80+ hours per week without batting an eye to a guy scared to leave his bedroom.  If I didn't get to a Dr and begin taking meds, who knows where I'd be.  Maybe I'd be healed already, maybe I'd be in a psych ward.  I don't know the answer.  What I do know is I want my life back.  I'm following my psychologist and my psychiatrists advice and trying to get there.  I do feel better some days.  I feel back to square 1 some days.  Today is one of those square one days.  As I laid in bed thinking about it, I think most of my square 1 problem came from reading this thread. 

FACT, I know several people that took 1 mg klonopin per day for anywhere from 2 months to 2 years and they got over their abnormal anxiety and are drug free.

FACT, I have an aunt that is 65 years old and has lived a healthy productive working life AFTER she became agoraphobic in her late 30's.  She's taken 4-6 mg of xanax per day and that is all.  She is perfectly ok with it because it allows her to live her life.

FACT, I have a grandfather who has taken 1-2 mg of xanax for sleep for 30 years.  Yes, I know it's not good for sleep, but it works for him and if the placebo has lasted 30 years so be it.  BTW, he's 84 and has leukemia.  He's lived a great life and is a very happy person.

FACT, the internet is full of people who will blame benzos for all of their problems.  I don't know what caused my problems all I know is I spent 41 years care free and all of a sudden my nerves don't work the way they're supposed to.  IT SUCKS SO BAD!!!!!!!!  It's so extremely frustrating.  I'm dependent on .5-1mg of klonopin per day and it's terrible.  BUT, is it worse than being stuck in my room scared to go out?  HECK no, it's giving me a semblance of my life back even if it's not where I want to be, I know I'll get there. 

For 1 year now, I've taken less than prescribed benzos.  Do they help?  Yes.  Have they cured me? No.  Prayer, rest, acceptance, therapy, walking through panic have got me to a better place. 

I know this, reading people blame benzos for their problems put's the seeds of doubt in my head and causes me to go backwards.  I love this board and have got so much comfort from it in terrible terrible times.  I hate this board in that I can come here feeling good and read something that it takes me days to get past in my recovery.

Dude, seriously, .01 mg per day for well over a decade?  What in the world are you worrying about?
Bookmark and Share

Offline insights

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4126
  • Country: au
  • Rec's: 94
  • Gender: Male
  • Mood: Curious
    Curious
    • Poke This Member
Re: Is Robert DuPont's "lifetime steady dose of benzos" total nonsense?
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2014, 07:04:01 PM »
Based on your information, that's just patent nonsense. It makes me wonder how such a rich & prolific lie ever got started or sustained, and it makes me want to go back on the "other" forum and say, "Hey guys, all that stuff about BZDs blowing out your GABA receptors is crap, and here's the science behind it!"

I tried that at what I think was the original ***** version of the group you're referring to. The post was very quickly deleted and my membership canceled. In some respect these groups operate as cults and contradicting the group's belief system with facts is unwelcome.

One tale from the early days, in the weeks after 9/11 a large number of former, supposedly cured members returned complaining that they were again having withdrawal symptoms. Some had been symptom free for several years. Much of the world was anxious, they were in withdrawal lol. As was the standard practice they were blamed for not having weaned off their benzo 'correctly' and were advised to start taking the med again and to this time wean off exactly as per the group's article of faith, aka the Ashton protocol, to allow the receptors to 'heal' properly. I often wondered how much Ashton knew about what was being done in her name.

Quote
Many develop insomnia, loss of creativity or emotion, memory problems, tinnitus & hearing issues, body pains, depression, depersonalization, the list goes on...so BZDs must be screwing with some part of the brain or perhaps the thousands of receptors not in the brain

Most of those are also anxiety symptoms. Withdrawal is a very complex process in which the physical is only a part. Psychological and social factors are at least as important, and probably the more important component. This is the case not only with benzodiazepines, but most meds that cause dependence, however, it is a bigger issue with BZDs withdrawal in those with anxiety disorder because folk are already dealing with psychosocial issues and sensitized to bodily reactions.

Quote
But it still leaves much unexplained, and seems to leave BZDs in the category of drugs that could give many people some real bad problems, not the "quite safe" category.

True, but this is the case with almost all the psych meds. And many other meds too. A friend of mine had a bad reaction to one of the sulfur based antibiotics 50 years ago and she still has hair and skin issues to this day, albeit much milder than in the beginning. All meds have risks. Even common aspirin kills several thousand Americans each year (in some cases it can also be highly addictive in the true medical sense of the word). However, not treating anxiety disorders is not safe either. Unrelieved anxiety/stress is humanity's leading cause of premature death.

Ian
Bookmark and Share
NOTE: I'm not a doctor, and particularly not yours, so there may be factors I'm unaware of. Therefore all advice is of a general nature and you should consult your doctor before following any of it, especially before changing med doses.

Offline sethman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Country: us
  • Rec's: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • Mood: Thoughtful
    Thoughtful
  • Identified with my Mind; working on Awakening
    • Poke This Member
Re: Is Robert DuPont's "lifetime steady dose of benzos" total nonsense?
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2014, 07:48:02 PM »
Thanks again Ian, agree with all you said. Looks like you may have missed my next post, after the one you broke down & replied too, in which I said:

"It must be noted that many GAD sufferers report those same symptoms before taking drugs - I certainly had the anxiety, depression, depersonalization and sleep disturbances before ever using benzos. All those symptoms, even complaints of pains, fibromyalgia, and constant flu-like symptoms, are all part of the GAD profile. And you did say these were awful drugs that no one would or should take, if it weren't for the fact that they're the best we've currently got. So..."
Bookmark and Share
There is nothing out of order in the Universe...except maybe me :-)

Offline NeverAgain2

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
  • Rec's: 4
  • Gender: Male
  • Personal text
    • Poke This Member
Re: Is Robert DuPont's "lifetime steady dose of benzos" total nonsense?
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2014, 08:15:26 PM »
NeverAgain I see you quoted me, thanks, but didn't add your own response. Was that intentional, just to repeat me, or did you mean to say something about that?

After my last response to Ian's well researched reply, I thought to add..

It must be noted that many GAD sufferers report those same symptoms before taking drugs - I certainly had the anxiety, depression, depersonalization and sleep disturbances before ever using benzos. All those symptoms, even complaints of pains, fibromyalgia, and constant flu-like symptoms, are all part of the GAD profile. And you did say these were awful drugs that no one would or should take, if it weren't for the fact that they're the best we've currently got. So...


It appears that my post vanished --due to upgrades on the site-- and when I tried to re-post I was told I had already done so.  Thank you, HAL.  :laugh3:  Hey, if can happen to the Pentagon....

I was about to add the thoughts you mentioned: that many signs of GAD sufferers have those same symptoms, and that benzos were not, of course, cures, but tools.   As far as a benzo being awful drugs?  I disagree.  Not when used as needed, as they say.     An aspirin taken daily does more damage to the human body, IMO.

 Without the use of Ativan and later Valium, I probably would have recovered, but at a much slower rate.  I, like most when the symptoms started, blamed something organic; then an MRI showed something "horrible", which of course was normal wear and tear on the spine, and I went into a tail-spin and I literally pain wrapped around my trunk 24/7.  But.... I still had to go to work, pay my bills and try to function, and Ativan and Valium were the only drugs that helped me.  I tapered finally and was done. For all those out there with GAD and the horrible symptoms that go with it, finding good help is very hard, so I am a typing, writing ad for the works of Abraham Low MD.
Bookmark and Share

Offline sethman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Country: us
  • Rec's: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • Mood: Thoughtful
    Thoughtful
  • Identified with my Mind; working on Awakening
    • Poke This Member
Re: Is Robert DuPont's "lifetime steady dose of benzos" total nonsense?
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2014, 08:21:59 PM »
Well, I've been on .5-1 mg per day for over 6 months and 5 months of .5-1.5 mg xanax daily before that...I'm following my psychologist and my psychiatrists advice and trying to get there.  I do feel better some days.  I feel back to square 1 some days.  Today is one of those square one days.  As I laid in bed thinking about it, I think most of my square 1 problem came from reading this thread...

I know this, reading people blame benzos for their problems put's the seeds of doubt in my head and causes me to go backwards.  I love this board and have got so much comfort from it in terrible terrible times.  I hate this board in that I can come here feeling good and read something that it takes me days to get past in my recovery.

Dude, seriously, .01 mg per day for well over a decade?  What in the world are you worrying about?

Cosomo, I so sorry today feels like one your bad days, not one of the better ones. I genuinely feel for you, because my days go back & forth also.

First & foremost, don't let the reading of this thread, or any forum thread anywhere, be the source of feeling back at square one. If a thread on this board can cause you to stop feeling good and cost you several bad days, perhaps you shouldn't be reading this board. You say other threads here have given you much comfort, but you can be responsible and choosy about which threads you engage with. If a topic seems like something that's gonna bug you, just shift threads & move on. It sounds like you already trust your psychologist & psychiatrists advice, so stick with what they recommend, regardless of whatever questions & conclusions are posted here...no one here is a doctor, and not your doctor, so please be responsible about how you ingest any information here.

Also, you gave example after example of people who did fine with long-term benzo use, and most of the responses to my original question have echoed that, including some very insightful posts by Ian, who has done, and posted, extensive research. So if anything, reading all of this thread should give you confidence that taking your meds is totally fine and nothing this thread should make you nervous about.

Lastly, the reason I brought this question up was specifically because I was about to increase my miniscule dose and go onto a regular dose of at least .5/day or more, and not because I was concerned much about the small amount I've ingested up till now. I've been having a rough patch for most of this year, and was thinking of giving myself constant relief form constant doses, something I've never done in the past. And before I started up, I wanted to make sure I wasn't heading for trouble...particular because another, more benzo-reactionary forum said I was. So I asked, and I'm satisfied with the answers.

For myself, I chose to stop even my small intermittent doses Klonopin about 12 weeks ago and see if I could actually feel better staying off it and allowing my brain/receptors to "reset." What I've taken away from this thread - a beneficial, rather than disturbing, overview that I hope you can also embrace - is that I'm fine either way. If I can stay off it and don't need it, that may be the best option, but if I do need to start up again, even on a much more regular daily dose than I ever took previously, my body & brain will be fine with that too.
Bookmark and Share
There is nothing out of order in the Universe...except maybe me :-)

Offline insights

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4126
  • Country: au
  • Rec's: 94
  • Gender: Male
  • Mood: Curious
    Curious
    • Poke This Member
Re: Is Robert DuPont's "lifetime steady dose of benzos" total nonsense?
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2014, 09:04:06 PM »
I know this, reading people blame benzos for their problems put's the seeds of doubt in my head and causes me to go backwards.  I love this board and have got so much comfort from it in terrible terrible times.  I hate this board in that I can come here feeling good and read something that it takes me days to get past in my recovery.

I'm sorry that this discussion has had that affect, but I do think it is important that people are aware of all the facts.  A lot of the angst people post here about could have been avoided if their doctor had adequately explained all the issue with the anxiety/depression med they'd been prescribed. Too often doctors leave their patients completely in the dark and unprepared for side-effects, etc.

No med for any indication, including so called 'natural' supplements, is totally benign. They all have potential issues. And the important word in that last sentence is "potential." Not everyone does have an issue, and most have only minor problems at worst. The vast majority will gain much more from a med than they lose, and that is certainly also the case with benzodiazepines and antidepressants, but there are risks with these meds which need to be acknowledged and factored in. Both anxiety and depression are a bigger risk to people's wellbeing than the meds used to treat them.

Ian
Bookmark and Share
NOTE: I'm not a doctor, and particularly not yours, so there may be factors I'm unaware of. Therefore all advice is of a general nature and you should consult your doctor before following any of it, especially before changing med doses.

Offline Frotob

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 43
  • Country: 00
  • Rec's: 1
  • Gender: Male
  • Personal text
    • Poke This Member
Re: Is Robert DuPont's "lifetime steady dose of benzos" total nonsense?
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2014, 07:00:56 PM »
I know this, reading people blame benzos for their problems put's the seeds of doubt in my head and causes me to go backwards.  I love this board and have got so much comfort from it in terrible terrible times.  I hate this board in that I can come here feeling good and read something that it takes me days to get past in my recovery.

I'm sorry that this discussion has had that affect, but I do think it is important that people are aware of all the facts.  A lot of the angst people post here about could have been avoided if their doctor had adequately explained all the issue with the anxiety/depression med they'd been prescribed. Too often doctors leave their patients completely in the dark and unprepared for side-effects, etc.

No med for any indication, including so called 'natural' supplements, is totally benign. They all have potential issues. And the important word in that last sentence is "potential." Not everyone does have an issue, and most have only minor problems at worst. The vast majority will gain much more from a med than they lose, and that is certainly also the case with benzodiazepines and antidepressants, but there are risks with these meds which need to be acknowledged and factored in. Both anxiety and depression are a bigger risk to people's wellbeing than the meds used to treat them.

Ian

I agree completely. And I'm sorry if my posts in particular caused you any problems. The vast majority of the people in the "other" forum are loons, but some have helpful advice. I mentioned much of my family is on BZDs for sleeping problems with no intention of stopping them. They're fairly safe drugs when used as prescribed, and it is a minority of people that have much difficulty tapering off of them when they decide to - unfortunately I'm in that minority. . . Possibly because of my history of alcohol abuse, can't be sure really. All I know is that I get really sick for 10-14 days after I make a relatively small reduction (.5mg Valium). Yes, it sucks. . No it's not the worst thing that's ever happened to me lol; and after the 10-14 days I'm fine. Anxiety isn't even a profound symptom of the withdrawal for me. So while I do notice some psychological symptoms, they feel a lot more like when I would go through alcohol withdrawal than anything "rebound anxiety" spawned up. I'm actually pleasantly surprised anxiety in the forefront of my symptoms, because I tend to deal with the physical aspects much more so than the mental. After the first reduction or two it became much less anxiety inducing because I knew what was gonna happen.

TL;DR - If you or anyone that reads this runs into problems tapering off, as long as you're going slowly and responsibly at a rate you decide - You're probably looking at a mild flu for 1-3 weeks per reduction depending on the halflife of the BZD you're tapering from, nothing more, nothing less. It's more frustrating than anything.

Keep in mind, I'm 24 years old. If I was much older, I would probably consider just staying on the drug because I don't deem them that dangerous - But I'm comfortable with my anxiety now and I don't need them and don't want to foster dependence any longer than necessary. Thus, my perspective may differ greatly from others.
Bookmark and Share

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
4 Replies
5917 Views
Last post September 15, 2006, 10:10:04 AM
by pinky5
9 Replies
3092 Views
Last post March 12, 2010, 07:44:31 AM
by Mikward
15 Replies
8250 Views
Last post January 14, 2011, 07:51:02 AM
by renaed
1 Replies
417 Views
Last post April 02, 2011, 09:24:21 PM
by Vinny687
9 Replies
335 Views
Last post February 04, 2014, 09:47:28 PM
by CrazyQuacker75

anything