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Author Topic: When does it become a dependency on Xanax? Paranoid Doc reducing my prescription  (Read 909 times)

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Offline NeverAgain2

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What study are you referring to? I'm interested to see a double blind study that shows SSRIs to be comparable to placebo in regards to anxiety.

I myself have not read the studies.  I don't have time, honestly.  If they do or do not exist, the studies that is, I am sure that there is some bias interlaced in methodology or administration, despite scientific claim. .  However, there are many people who are helped by SSRI's and many that are not, and science cannot yet tell  us why they work, exactly.  I'm not trying to turn this into an argument, and I think we are essentially saying the same thing.  One can find studies that say anything, but it is the individual experience of the patient that matters. 

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Also, I believe much of the bad publicity benzos get is from the general lack of knowledge on the part of those who prescribe them. Like insights mentioned many doctors attempt to get you off of them in record time, without giving you a real taper schedule, or any information at all. The ones I encountered preferred I stay on them simply because they didn't know how to taper me off correctly. Like I said, I was met with blank stares and referrals to other doctors when I asked to be tapered off of Ativan, I eventually had to find a psych on my own who had some experience in it, and was open to letting me go at a reasonable pace. They simply weren't designed to be long term (over a few months) solution.

Many of those same doctors will try to take you off of anti-depressants without a proper taper, too, which results in many ill effects.   You were met with the general ignorance of the medical profession on prescriptions in general, and your experience is unique to you.  As mentioned, I tapered and was done and had no withdrawal problems and no urgings to return to Ativan, either physical or psychological.  As far as a long-term solution, there are people who have taken the same dose of a benzo for years and claim it has helped them.  Again, I don't have time to look up studies.  I can only go on what is self-reported.  And again, I think we are on the same side of the question.

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Being an alcoholic or a street drug user is really a moot point, I never took more than was prescribed. It's not an addiction, it's a physical dependance happening.

Not so.  It may be moot for you and for others, but there are those who abuse any substance at hand.  And...aside from a physical dependence, which can happen with SSRI's, SNRI's and many other, non-psychotropic drugs, there can, for those who abuse, be a psychological dependence.  Again, you are taking your subjective experience and extrapolating.  Nothing wrong with that, but it is not universal or even statistical truth.

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Until doctors get wise to the fact that people do have trouble coming off of BZDs, I have no problem with them being more conservative in prescribing them. Had I known then what I do now, I would have refused the prescription and dealt with the anxiety I was having while starting an SSRI. I just can't see an argument for them being anything other than a last resort option for long term use in dealing with anxiety. As far as the Reefer Madness analogy I would imagine anyone dealing with issues getting off of Opiates/BZDs or even SSRIs for that matter would much prefer to have a "dependance" on pot lol.

I think your first sentence can be applied to many drugs, including SSRI's and SNRI's.   How can doctors be more conservative in prescribing benzos?  To get a doctor to supply someone with more than two to three months worth (at least in the US) is virtually impossible, and soon, probably, they will not be available at all. And again, you are taking your subjective experience and applying it universally.  There are many who say exactly what you are saying about benzos and state the same with SSRI's and SNRI's.  Read the many forums out there, but remember, these people, like you,  are self-reporting their problems.  Those who are not experiencing problems do not usually turn to the internet and post positive reviews, though there are some pages out there that do. 

My reference to "Reefer Madness" is to call to the fore the fact that there is an anti-medication crowd out there, many of whom have had bad experiences, who seek to ban and/or severely restrict not only benzos but SSRI's, SNRI's, and opiates of all types, insisting that they are dangerous, based on their experience.  These people start movements and get the ear of politicians who want to be able to say they are helping to quaff out "dangerous drugs" and they enact legislation. I call this "Med Madness", and some of these same folks are those who are of the "tough it out" and "I would never take it had I known" and "Big Pharma is behind it all" and, worst of all, the "snap out of it" crowd who think that anxiety and depression are simple funks.  We are on the same side of this issue, really. I just disagree about the efficacy of benzos, thinking they do and can have a long-term place for some people.

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Sorry to hear about your father. Hospitals often have to abide by the "first, do no harm" deal to absolve themselves from responsibility in the case of malpractice suits.
 

The hospital's action was part of the 80's "Med Madness", which came and, thankfully, went.  But Med Madness is coming back with a vengeance and many, many will suffer in the future. 

 Part of the problem is that a visit to your doctor used to be a private affair; now it is a political act with the passage of the ACA in the US.  Anything political is subject to the ignorance of the politicians, writ large, I'm afraid, and the whims of the collective or the voice of the protester who can catch the ear of the same politicians.   
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Offline Frotob

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I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to argue anymore. Benzos are and have been a scheduled drug for decades now. . . It seems like you're just trying to debunk my opinion without offering anything of substance. If you don't have the time to read studies on SSRIs how did you come up with the time to type all that out?

Comparing SSRI dependence to BZD/Alcohol/Barbiturate dependence is like comparing T-Ball to MLB.

If benzos get phased out, good ***** em. 
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Offline comoso

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Frotob, I'm still curious how long you took benzos and at what dose?

I hate that I'm taking them, but I put myself through a lot of suffering instead of increasing them.  I take .5mg klonopin per day.  I'm prescribed 1 mg per day.  I don't want to get hooked so I suffer.

No offense, it's just a lot of people with your opinion of them develop that opinion after benefitting from them for years. 
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Offline Christophe

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I really don't see a problem with taking something like Xanax if it's helping, just as long as one is responsible and doesn't overdo it.  I find myself doing the same thing, trying to limit myself to 1.5 mg a day and having to suffer short periods of mild anxiety because I don't want to get hooked.

Interesting articles about SSRI's.  I remember being on Celexa years ago.  I felt horrible the first few days, then the side effects eased a bit.  But, that annoying feeling of being tense and tired at the same time never went away and I didn't feel like I was feeling much better on it so I just stopped taking it.  I don't remember any withdrawal and that tense feeling finally went away.
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Offline Frotob

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Cosmos, I was on 1mg of Ativan for roughly 5-6 months. While I did benefit from them at the time, it is disproportionate to the discomfort I have experienced trying to get off of Ativan. I wish I would've weathered the anxiety I had prior to starting it. . . as it pales in comparison to what I'm dealing with now. Given, I'm well aware everyone's experiences are different and I might be in the minority. . . But I cannot in good conscious agree that benzos be used as anything other than a short term treatment, when there are medications available that carry much less risk of dependence and comparably minor withdrawal syndromes.

My experience is probably being exacerbated by a "kindling" effect due to my history of alcohol abuse and multiple withdrawals from alcohol.

I don't want to come off as anti meds, or anti benzos - because I'm not. I just think that benzos niche is for short term treatments. They're more of a bandaid than anything, carry a high risk of dependence and tolerance issues, and have arguably the nastiest withdrawal profile of any prescription or street drug.

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Offline NeverAgain2

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I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to argue anymore. Benzos are and have been a scheduled drug for decades now. . . It seems like you're just trying to debunk my opinion without offering anything of substance. If you don't have the time to read studies on SSRIs how did you come up with the time to type all that out?

Comparing SSRI dependence to BZD/Alcohol/Barbiturate dependence is like comparing T-Ball to MLB.

If benzos get phased out, good ***** em.

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to argue either, or what your point is,  except that because you had a bad experience with benzos they should be phased out because of your experience.   I can't debunk your experience, because it is your experience.  And it sounded like a bad one, but given that, what?

 How did I have the time to type all this out: I woke up early.  I don't read double blind studies for fun. Nor will I try to to make a point on a forum.  You are entitled to your opinion, and me, mine.   I ain't no doctor.  I can't even spell dokter, and I don't even like most dockterz.

 I won't however take my subjective experience, good or bad, and either condone or condemn a group of meds, which you seem to want to do, which is cheeky, given your history of alcohol abuse as stated --no offense, as you brought it up.   

 And it is also your opinion that SSRI and SNRI dependence is somewhat mild.  For some yes; others no.  Read some of the terror  descriptions of people trying to get off some of the SSRI's and SNRI's.  They read as bad as any benzo addiction.  To believe SSRI's cause little or no dependence is to follow the sales instructions straight from the Pharma reps.  Some will; some won't.  It's that simple. 

Insights believes that anti-depressants, all, are more effective for all than a placebo.  Seems a rather broad statement when some people are clearly helped by AD's and some are not.  I don't know if I could call that demolishing an idea, but he seems to know a lot more than I do about medications, so I defer.  I believe in their use, period, both AD's and benzos and, again, opiates.

Anyway, this is pointless.  I believe in the use of AD's and benzos and opiates, all when necessary and all under good care. 

Now, time to promote world peace.
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Offline insights

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Insights believes that anti-depressants, all, are more effective for all than a placebo.  Seems a rather broad statement when some people are clearly helped by AD's and some are not.

No, they don't work for everyone. Years ago I devised the Rule of Thirds tm which states that about one third that take antidepressants will do very well effectivelly becoming anxiety/depression free, another third will derive enough benefit to make it worth taking antidepressants but will continue to experience some anxiety/depression, and the final third would find M&Ms better because at least these taste good. Results for the cognitive/behavioural/mindfulness therapies are about the same.

Ian
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NOTE: I'm not a doctor, and particularly not yours, so there may be factors I'm unaware of. Therefore all advice is of a general nature and you should consult your doctor before following any of it, especially before changing med doses.

Offline NeverAgain2

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Insights believes that anti-depressants, all, are more effective for all than a placebo.  Seems a rather broad statement when some people are clearly helped by AD's and some are not.

No, they don't work for everyone. Years ago I devised the Rule of Thirds tm which states that about one third that take antidepressants will do very well effectivelly becoming anxiety/depression free, another third will derive enough benefit to make it worth taking antidepressants but will continue to experience some anxiety/depression, and the final third would find M&Ms better because at least these taste good. Results for the cognitive/behavioural/mindfulness therapies are about the same.

Ian

I see. Seems logical.
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Offline Frotob

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NeverAgain, you're a douchebag. I hope all the bad things in life happen to you, only to you, and nobody else.

Enjoy your lonely life you conceited prick.

No offense, of course - as you aided in making my subjective opinion on your character.

Good luck promoting world peace from the comfort of your little bubble.

EDIT: In the highly likely instance this response is reported to a moderator, I'd like to point out NeverAgain2's classless dig at me regarding my past alcohol problems in his above post, which precipitated this equally tasteful, yet less subtle reply from myself.
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Offline NeverAgain2

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NeverAgain, you're a douchebag. I hope all the bad things in life happen to you, only to you, and nobody else.

Enjoy your lonely life you conceited prick.

No offense, of course - as you aided in making my subjective opinion on your character.

Good luck promoting world peace from the comfort of your little bubble.

EDIT: In the highly likely instance this response is reported to a moderator, I'd like to point out NeverAgain2's classless dig at me regarding my past alcohol problems in his above post, which precipitated this equally tasteful, yet less subtle reply from myself.

I hope this comment is not flagged but serves as an example of what happens when a person cannot carry on a conversation in a sane and objective manner.  You, sir, brought up your  alcohol addiction problem, not I, and I'm not going to apologize that people with addictive personalities  and substance abuse problems often have problems with more than one substance -- or even a medication.  You still want to overlay your opinion on a class of medications and have them restricted or banned.  It's narrow thinking.

I would suggest if you don't want something called to attention, don't put in a post. 

You may want to think about an anger management class or therapy , too.  Anger contributes greatly to anxiety.

I wish the best for you.  And health.  And peace. 
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Offline Frotob

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NeverAgain2

I believe it was you who started with a personal attack. Funny how you know someone means offense when they begin or end a statement with "no offense". Regardless of how subtle you thought it was, the malicious intent was there. I honestly don't give half a ***** about your opinion, I very much doubt your anxiety is as controlled as you'd lead everyone to believe.

I have never expressed the view that I want Benzos banned or restricted further, only that it'd be great if doctors were less liberal with them. I believe their niche is short term use, for as needed use when absolutely necessary.

As for anger management - You stopped adding anything of substance to this post a while back, and began just debunking my opinion. Which is fine, but you contradicted yourself a couple times over, shredding whatever argument you had in the first place. I was very aware that you were trolling for that type of response when I wrote it, it's what feeds your "holier than thou" personality. I was hoping more than anything that it'd just shut you up.

I would suggest, in the future, if you're going to reference "studies", that you have in fact read such studies. . . . rather than fabricating their findings yourself. Then again, I suppose it is possible to be completely objective in your opinion if you're completely ignorant.

One could also argue your objectivity went out the window when you brought up your father as a talking point to further your opinion.

TLDR; You're trolling on the internet, I'm not reading this thread anymore. We've both got differing opinions, I'm not concerned whether you agree with mine or not. Have a good life guy.
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Offline NeverAgain2

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You have projected all your anger and problems on me, which I think is clear for anybody to see. 
 
Sometimes a forum is not the best place to find help when a person is so agitated. 

It is better that you don't read or see anything that rubs you the wrong way, as you are not equipped to debate with dispassion.

Again, I forgive you for your personal attacks, not for you, but for me. 

Peace and health. 

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Offline Frotob

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Keep trollin' homeboy.

You didn't get under my skin, need more practice imo.

There was no "debate" you were no more objective than I, and you flip flopped on your opinion, several times; sometimes even in the same post.

Thanks so much for the forgiveness I didn't ask for, I'm unapologetic for what I said. You're clearly trolling. . . for what I. . I don't know and don't frankly care. Have a good life pal.

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