Member Gallery    Games   Member Groups   Member Blogs   Health News    Bored?

Author Topic: Natural supplements  (Read 1262 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MLB2805

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
  • Country: us
  • Rec's: 1
  • Gender: Female
  • Mood: Sleepy
    Sleepy
  • Personal text
    • Poke This Member
Natural supplements
« on: January 28, 2014, 09:07:48 PM »
Does anyone on here take natural supplements for anxiety? Does it help? And what do you take? TIA
Bookmark and Share
You don't have to control your thoughts. You just have to stop letting them control you.

Offline insights

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5460
  • Country: au
  • Rec's: 115
  • Gender: Male
  • Mood: Curious
    Curious
    • Poke This Member
Re: Natural supplements
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2014, 10:43:26 PM »
Does anyone on here take natural supplements for anxiety? Does it help? And what do you take? TIA

The only natural treatments with a goodish track record for mild to moderate anxiety are Omega-3 fatty acids/fishoil oil, and exercise. Some of the others may help with very mild anxiety. None will do much for severe anxiety and panic attacks. For these the only treatments that are as effective as antidepressants and benzodiazepines are the cognitive and/or behavioural and/or mindfulness therapies.

Ian
Bookmark and Share
NOTE: I'm not a doctor, and particularly not yours, so there may be factors I'm unaware of. Therefore all advice is of a general nature and you should consult your doctor before following any of it, especially before changing med doses.

Offline MLB2805

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
  • Country: us
  • Rec's: 1
  • Gender: Female
  • Mood: Sleepy
    Sleepy
  • Personal text
    • Poke This Member
Re: Natural supplements
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2014, 11:41:16 AM »
I saw you posted something before about the fish oil ... I was thinking about trying krill oil. What was the amount that you recommended? I that I saw
You post it somewhere?!
Bookmark and Share
You don't have to control your thoughts. You just have to stop letting them control you.

Offline insights

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5460
  • Country: au
  • Rec's: 115
  • Gender: Male
  • Mood: Curious
    Curious
    • Poke This Member
Re: Natural supplements
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2014, 04:08:22 PM »
I saw you posted something before about the fish oil ... I was thinking about trying krill oil.

At this stage I'm not convinced that krill oil has any advantages over ordinary fishoil apart from making consumers' wallets lighter.

On fish oil, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) seems to be the important fatty acid so chose the brand that has the most. A daily dose of 4 to 6 1,000mg capsules seems to be about right and divide them across the three main meals of the day. Start with only one capsule to avoid diarrhea and increase by one every 3-4 days.

Ian
Bookmark and Share
NOTE: I'm not a doctor, and particularly not yours, so there may be factors I'm unaware of. Therefore all advice is of a general nature and you should consult your doctor before following any of it, especially before changing med doses.

Offline Delomelanican

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
  • Country: 00
  • Rec's: 4
  • Gender: Male
  • Personal text
    • Poke This Member
Re: Natural supplements
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2014, 09:41:11 PM »
Does anyone on here take natural supplements for anxiety? Does it help? And what do you take? TIA

The only natural treatments with a goodish track record for mild to moderate anxiety are Omega-3 fatty acids/fishoil oil, and exercise. Some of the others may help with very mild anxiety. None will do much for severe anxiety and panic attacks. For these the only treatments that are as effective as antidepressants and benzodiazepines are the cognitive and/or behavioural and/or mindfulness therapies.

Ian

This is inaccurate. Niacinamide ( vitamin b 3) is much more effective than omega 3 fatty acids. Works similar to a benzodiazepine. Lots of people turn to Niacinamide when trying to ween off benzos, check out benzo buddies. It's safe, and does not produce dependence. Safety has been demonstrated up to 3 grams daily.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7913840
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8588246


Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine Vol. 20, No. 3, 2005

Serotonin Synthesis

Another biochemical reason for niacinamide’s anxiolytic effects might have to do with the vital role that it has upon the synthesis of serotonin.

For example, in a patient with anorexia nervosa an insufficient supply of vitamin B3 or protein resulted in reduced urinary levels of the serotonin breakdown product, 5-hydroxy-indolacetic acid (5-HIAA).32 The authors of this report postulated that a deficiency of vitamin B3 reduced the feedback inhibition upon the kynurenine pathway, resulting in more tryptophan being diverted to the kynurenine pathway, making less substrate available for the synthesis of serotonin.

By contrast, the use of pharmacological doses of vitamin B3 can increase the production of serotonin.33 In a rat study, the administration of 20 mg of niacin resulted in increased levels of 5-HIAA and decreased levels of xanthurenic acid via the kynurenine pathway.34 Taking pharmacological doses of niacinamide (or any other form of vitamin B3) would increase the production of serotonin, by diverting more tryptophan to become substrate for serotonin synthesis. Niacinamide’s therapeutic ability to increase serotonin production might explain why it was successful in reducing the anxiety symptoms of the three patients"




Excess nicotinamide increases plasma serotonin and histamine levels.

Tian YJ, Li D, Ma Q, Gu XY, Guo M, Lun YZ, Sun WP, Wang XY, Cao Y, Zhou SS.

Source

Institute of Basic Medical Sciences, Medical College, Dalian University, Dalian 116622, China; Department of Neurology, Zhongshan Hospital Affiliated to Dalian University, Dalian 116001, China; College of Environmental and Chemical Engineering, Dalian University, Dalian 116622, China; Department of Physiology, Institute of Basic Medical Sciences, China Medical University, Shenyang 110001, China. E-mail: zhouss@dlu.edu.cn.


Abstract


Methylation, a methyl group-consuming reaction, plays a key role in the degradation (i.e., inactivation) of monoamine neurotransmitters, including catecholamines, serotonin and histamine. Without labile methyl groups, the methylation-mediated degradation cannot take place. Although high niacin (nicotinic acid and nicotinamide) intake, which is very common nowadays, is known to deplete the body's methyl-group pool, its effect on monoamine-neurotransmitter degradation is not well understood. The aim of this article was to investigate the effect of excess nicotinamide on the levels of plasma serotonin and histamine in healthy subjects. Urine and venous blood samples were collected from nine healthy male volunteers before and after oral loading with 100 mg nicotinamide. Plasma N(1)-methylnicotinamide, urinary N(1)-methyl-2-pyridone-5-carboxamide (2-Py), and plasma betaine levels were measured by using high-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC). Plasma concentrations of choline, serotonin and histamine were measured using commercial kits. The results showed that the plasma N(1)-methylnicotinamide level and the urinary excretion of 2-Py significantly increased after oral loading with 100 mg nicotinamide, which was accompanied with a decrease in the methyl-group donor betaine. Compared with those before nicotinamide load, five-hour postload plasma serotonin and histamine levels significantly increased. These results suggest that excess nicotinamide can disturb monoamine-neurotransmitter metabolism. These findings may be of significance in understanding the etiology of monoamine-related mental diseases, such as schizophrenia and autism (a neurodevelopmental disorder).

http://www.actaps.com.cn/qikan/manage/wenzhang/2013-1-05.pdf



Bookmark and Share

Offline MLB2805

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
  • Country: us
  • Rec's: 1
  • Gender: Female
  • Mood: Sleepy
    Sleepy
  • Personal text
    • Poke This Member
Re: Natural supplements
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2014, 10:15:17 PM »
I have read this
Before as well. I am taking a b complex but this is different ...
Not sure what to buy though ...
Currently trying to wean off a benzo (klonopin) as
Well... Any suggestions on what to get?
Bookmark and Share
You don't have to control your thoughts. You just have to stop letting them control you.

Offline Delomelanican

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
  • Country: 00
  • Rec's: 4
  • Gender: Male
  • Personal text
    • Poke This Member
Re: Natural supplements
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2014, 10:25:36 PM »
Niacinamide capsules, come in 500 mg from now brand. I would also suggest beginning vitamin c supplementation. Especially since you are coming off benzos, these are just a few studies showing effectiveness of vitamin c for a different variety of drug withdrawals and dependencies . But not just for coming off benzos, Vitamin c is the cheapest and single best supplement you can take for health maintenance and prevention. There are thousands of scientific studies showing it's effects on a wide variety of different pathologies. I recommend looking up dr cathcart titration to bowel tolerance limit , Frederick klenner's research , thomas levy , linus pauling! Steve hickey and hilary Roberts for further information on dosage and such.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10836211
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2852062/


http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jps.3030301201/abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3913164
Bookmark and Share

Offline insights

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5460
  • Country: au
  • Rec's: 115
  • Gender: Male
  • Mood: Curious
    Curious
    • Poke This Member
Re: Natural supplements
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2014, 10:29:32 PM »
Excess nicotinamide increases plasma serotonin

Which might be great if serotonin deficiency was the cause of anxiety and depression. It isn't. In fact, increasing serotonin heightens anxiety as many experience when they start taking antidepressants, so it is fortunate that after a few weeks antidepressants substantially drive down serotonin synthesis and expression in areas of the brain which mediate anxiety, though this is not what produces the therapeutic effect, it is only a byproduct of the process.

Furthermore, plasma serotonin levels can be elevated by a number of factors unrelated to what is happening in the brain. It makes and uses less than 2% of the body's serotonin. About another 2% occurs in the skin, blood vessels and blood platelets, but most, around 95%, is synthesized and used by the complex nervous system controlling the gut. The extra niacinamide may well be having an effect on the gut to which it responds by expressing more serotonin, but this will have little if any effect on the brain. It is perhaps no coincidence that the most common niacinamide side-effects, diarrhea and stomach upset, occasionally vomiting, are gut related. These are also common initial SSRI side-effects too.

PS: Consult your doctor before niacinamide if you have bleeding problems (low platelets), diabetes, gout, kidney disease, liver disease, have a history of stomach problems/ulcers, or are pregnant. For diabetics, be aware that it can substantially raise blood glucose levels.

Ian
Bookmark and Share
NOTE: I'm not a doctor, and particularly not yours, so there may be factors I'm unaware of. Therefore all advice is of a general nature and you should consult your doctor before following any of it, especially before changing med doses.

Offline Delomelanican

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
  • Country: 00
  • Rec's: 4
  • Gender: Male
  • Personal text
    • Poke This Member
Re: Natural supplements
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2014, 10:45:33 PM »
The effects on serotonin are specifically cited in this study as occurring in the cerebral cortex
"Studies of neurotransmitter uptake and release by isolated rats brain cortex synaptosomes demonstrated that [2-14C]serotonin uptake was by 41% lower in streptozotocin-diabetic rats as compared to control. The [U-14C]GABA uptake was considerably elevated. [2-14C]serotonin and [U-14C]GABA release from the neurotransmitter pre-loaded synaptosomes showed significant elevation, especially during the first 3 minutes. Nicotinamide (NAm) administration (200 mg/kg body weight daily, 14 days) to diabetic rats restored synaptosomal serotonin uptake up to control levels, while the GABA uptake tended to decrease in diabetic rats. With this dose of NAm the partial restoration of serotonin and GABA release was achieved. The modulating effect of in vivo administered NAm acts via NAD which binds specifically with synaptic membranes. It has been shown that brain NAD(P)/NAD(P)H decreased while sorbitol level increased in streptozotocin-diabetic rats as compared to control. The NAm administration to diabetic rats is accompanied by the increase of NAD(P)/NAD(P)H and the reduction of brain sorbitol level. Data obtained confirm the important role of NAm in the pathogenesis of diabetic encephalopathies."


also, you never addressed this abstract
In the experiment and clinics, psychotropic effect of nicotinamide (tranquilized and nootropic activity) has been established. It has been shown that nicotinamide in conflict situation has anxiolytic effect, increase aggressive reaction threshold, decrease the quantity of induced fights during interspecies' incompatibility modelling.

So I am not really sure how you can disregard the efficacy of niacinamide for anxiety.
might as well drop a few more here
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6101294

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6125374

As the first article in this post stated niacinamide capable of restoring serotonin and GABA partially or all the way to control levels. The other link shows niacinamide as an endogenous ligand acting on target receptors in a similar manner as benzodiazepines. serotonin controversy aside , therapeutic effect is seen in Niacinamide a ability to bind to the benzodiazepine complex " ( GABA receptor / chloride channel) producing the inhibitory and anxiety therapeutic effects .

do you have any sources which state increased serotonin levels do not produce a therapeutic effect? Also would like to see a source stating serotonin deficiency isn't a cause of anxiety or depression?

Bookmark and Share

Offline insights

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5460
  • Country: au
  • Rec's: 115
  • Gender: Male
  • Mood: Curious
    Curious
    • Poke This Member
Re: Natural supplements
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2014, 11:36:00 PM »
also, you never addressed this abstract
In the experiment and clinics, psychotropic effect of nicotinamide (tranquilized and nootropic activity) has been established. It has been shown that nicotinamide in conflict situation has anxiolytic effect, increase aggressive reaction threshold, decrease the quantity of induced fights during interspecies' incompatibility modelling.

Yes, it is a assertion which may, or may not be of interest. Almost all the data supporting nicotinamide comes from a handful of Russia sources. It is interesting, but without placebo controlled studies in humans I'm not about to recommend it when there are other supplements which do have such evidence.

Quote
do you have any sources which state increased serotonin levels do not produce a therapeutic effect?

I suggest you read the studies I link to in the serotonin myth page. If you believe increased serotonin in the synapses, or increased synthesis and expression produces the therapeutic effect then you need to explain why it usually takes 3-12 weeks for the antidepressant therapeutic effect to begin when serotonin reuptake starts within about 30 minutes of the first pill, the effectiveness of tianeptine, an antidepressant which enhances serotonin reuptake, and the fact that serotonin synthesis and expression drops after a few weeks when taking antidepressants and this usually happens either before or around the time the med kicks-in (which does not mean the drop is the cause of the therapeutic response).

The most likely cause of anxiety and depression is the loss of brain cells in the two hippocampi as a result of chronic stress hormone exposure, particularly of cortisol, which directly kill neurons and prevent new ones from budding off and growing. They also 'prune' neuronal axons and synapses which reduces the number and strength of the interconnections between brain cells. Antidepressants reverse this loss by encouraging neurogenesis in the hippocampi and greater innervation between neurons. There is evidence that Omega-3 fatty acids, particularly EPA, also encourage hippocampal neurogenesis, as there is for exercise. AFAIK, there is none for nicotinamide.

Ian

 

Bookmark and Share
NOTE: I'm not a doctor, and particularly not yours, so there may be factors I'm unaware of. Therefore all advice is of a general nature and you should consult your doctor before following any of it, especially before changing med doses.

Tags: