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Author Topic: A little support with liver problem  (Read 2979 times)

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Offline ClassicNerd

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Re: A little support with liver problem
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2012, 07:37:03 PM »
I think you're fine. Drinking can cause spider nevi without cirrhosis, and if you drank a lot for 8 years and did cocaine, it's no wonder you have so many! lol! I don't think you did yourself any favours contacting this hep c specialist from the internet support group over the phone. I understand you're concerned, but two negatives means it's highly unlikely you're infected. The anti-bodies need to show up positive before anything else, so please try your best to put this all behind you.  I don't get why this specialist even recommended extra testing for you - probably just because you were nervous and he felt it might put your mind at ease!

I have a spider vein on the back of my hand, and several of my friends have them there as well. A lot of people I know have these spider nevi all over their bodies (upper and lower). There are many reasons for spider nevi from hormonal changes to plain genetics. There are a ton of other people on this board freak out about spider veins right now! lol! It must be catching!

Also, please keep in mind that plenty of healthy people have spider nevi, but you don't see them posting anything on the internet, because there are no real support groups for perfectly healthy individuals!  :winking0008: It's alarming to see all of the web sites linking spider nevi to liver disease, but for every hundred person that has liver disease and spider nevi, I bet there are a thousand people who have spider nevi and no underlying pathology.
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Offline Tomtom27

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Re: A little support with liver problem
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2012, 06:54:15 AM »
I think you're fine. Drinking can cause spider nevi without cirrhosis, and if you drank a lot for 8 years and did cocaine, it's no wonder you have so many! lol! I don't think you did yourself any favours contacting this hep c specialist from the internet support group over the phone. I understand you're concerned, but two negatives means it's highly unlikely you're infected. The anti-bodies need to show up positive before anything else, so please try your best to put this all behind you.  I don't get why this specialist even recommended extra testing for you - probably just because you were nervous and he felt it might put your mind at ease!

I have a spider vein on the back of my hand, and several of my friends have them there as well. A lot of people I know have these spider nevi all over their bodies (upper and lower). There are many reasons for spider nevi from hormonal changes to plain genetics. There are a ton of other people on this board freak out about spider veins right now! lol! It must be catching!

Also, please keep in mind that plenty of healthy people have spider nevi, but you don't see them posting anything on the internet, because there are no real support groups for perfectly healthy individuals!  :winking0008: It's alarming to see all of the web sites linking spider nevi to liver disease, but for every hundred person that has liver disease and spider nevi, I bet there are a thousand people who have spider nevi and no underlying pathology.

right.
i saw my docotor today, the family doctor. the only docotor i beleive in and trust.

again i raised my concerns of my spider navi and hep c.

he checked my top half of my body, he said yes you do have some spider navi and some cherry agiomas. he said spider navi are a sign of end stage liver deaise and not nesseceraly a sign of hep c.

we both looked through my liver function test and he explained what would be elevated if i had hep C and my results were spot on, noty even elevated slightly just perfect. He said with to negative anti body tests and a norma lft and normal ultra sound my liver is fine. he said healthy people get spider navi. he said what people read on the internet is rubbish, most of it floored and it contradicts itself constantly. dont read it.

i told him the only way out of out this hole is to get a hep c antigen test (viral test) he said your be wasting your money you dont have hep C.


so now i got to try and just move on, somehow, i stalled and i dont know what direction to turn. lets hope this therapy will help soon, i cant see how it can work but hope it might put me in better frame of mind.

 :happy0151:
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Offline Tomtom27

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Re: A little support with liver problem
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2012, 08:34:28 AM »
I don't think you did yourself any favours contacting this hep c specialist from the internet support group over the phone. I understand you're concerned, but two negatives means it's highly unlikely you're infected. The anti-bodies need to show up positive before anything else, so please try your best to put this all behind you.  I don't get why this specialist even recommended extra testing for you - probably just because you were nervous and he felt it might put your mind at ease!


no it didnt do me any favours at all, i just needed to talk to somone and he fed my anxiety well by suggesting that spider navi are bad and i need a fibro scan, my doctor said my ultra swound was good so my liver is fine. after multiple partners i always tested negative for hep c, right back to 2007 and always will because i havent never contracted it  :yes:. im well out the window period of 6months for testing. i will tell myself this, SPIDER NAVI occur in helathy people!!.  :happy0151:
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Offline NeverAgain1

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Re: A little support with liver problem
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2012, 01:14:15 AM »

And I also have that pain under the right ribs. If I eat greasy food it's worse. Upper right quadrant pain is a VERY common complain that almost always goes undiagnosed, most doctors wind of saying its IBS or similar. I have had that pain for 20 years. FYI there are no nerves in the liver so it can't feel pain, the possibility of liver pain is if its enlarged and pushing on other organs, but your ultrasound would show that.

Oh, my old friend.  Well, it seems that way anyway, regarding your upper right quadrant pain.  Reach around and examine your upper shoulder muscles and you will most likely find them tight and contracted.  Do this carefully, examine thoughtfully, move slowly without emotion.   Upper shoulder tension, your traps and rhomboids and your serratus anterior muscles, all postural muscles,  and all the first to react to stress and anxiety, are the culprit, not that liver of yours.  However, all these tense muscles will produce referred pain downward in the body, about liver level.

Accept that your liver, if damaged, would have killed you by now.  Accept that muscular tension, nerve disturbance and tendon problems, caused by conscious and unconscious anxiety and stress are the cause and, with time, you will find the cure.

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Offline ClassicNerd

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Re: A little support with liver problem
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2012, 02:49:13 PM »
TomTom27 - I'm glad your doctor was able to reassure you! My doctor told me the same thing: spider nevi occur in healthy people. They are not a sign of hep c, they are a sign of end stage liver disease, and at that point you're so sick you KNOW there is something wrong (it would show in your liver scans for sure!)

My doctor also waved off the whole normal LFT and hep c thing, stating it was highly unusual to have normal CBC and normal LFT with active hep c virus. I went through all of my blood tests with my doctor too - he's really great like that. Your doctor is right that doing the other test won't end this. You have negative anti-bodies, a healthy liver scan, and normal LFTs. You're fine!  :winking0008:

NeverAgain1 - that is exactly what my doctor told me was causing my upper right quadrant pain (also, my left rib sticks out more than my right rib). Some massage and physio made the pain go away completely. It's also straightening out my ribs. I've also been told to do some yoga to keep my muscles from getting tense.
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Offline ImObsessed

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Re: A little support with liver problem
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2012, 08:52:34 PM »
I have those spider nevi and one on the back of my hand. I was told by a doctor a few years ago that they dont even look for those things (including pale finger nails which I have). They use those signs to reinforce a suspicions of liver disease in positive lab findings. In other words, if your blood tests were out of whack, and your ultrasound shows some suspicion, then they would go looking at you for the spider nevi etc. Its like a puzzle. But the first pieces have to be in place (blood tests and ultrasound).

Regarding the yellow eyes, I do believe a tinge of red can look a little yellow especially under flourecent lights! If I lift my lower eye lid on my right eye it does look slightly yellow in the corners, when Im tired or in certain mirrors in bathrooms.

My father had cancer that spread to his liver, and I remember he turned yellow. There was no mistaken it. His skin and eyes were banana colored. It was very obvious.

And even with all this knowledge, I still worry about some impending liver disease.
So go figure :)
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Offline NeverAgain1

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Re: A little support with liver problem
« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2012, 02:58:39 AM »
NeverAgain1 - that is exactly what my doctor told me was causing my upper right quadrant pain (also, my left rib sticks out more than my right rib). Some massage and physio made the pain go away completely. It's also straightening out my ribs. I've also been told to do some yoga to keep my muscles from getting tense.

Classic, you had a good doctor. No doctor, even one experienced in mindbody symptoms told me that tense, palsied muscles will refer pain to other parts of the body, even though I understood that the cause of my pain was chronic anxiety finally producing physical symptoms.  I had an MRI and was found to have a herniated thoracic disc, which doctors told me was, essentially, a lifelong sentence to chronic pain.  I wanted to be dead instead. No doctor told me, either, that "slipped discs" are a normal part of aging, and almost always asymptomatic.

Fortunately, Pan, on here pointed me to Dr. Sarno, which led to the mindbody conception.  But even after that, no doctor told me that tensed and palsied muscles refer pain to this point or that, so the fear lingered.  Careful study of anatomy made me deduce the cause and effect of what these muscles did, and eliminated the fear.  No doctor even laid hands on me to determine what muscles were tight and palsied.  Fortunately, a good physical therapist told me what muscles were tight and what they can do to a body.

Reason for the rant is because the  shoulder and pectoral muscles refer pain to the abdomen and liver area and elsewhere  So, again, OP, examine your muscles without emotion and fear, and you will have your answer and, most likely, your "cure".


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Offline Tomtom27

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Re: A little support with liver problem
« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2012, 01:02:33 PM »
Im sorry all for my up and down mood. Feel good one minute and bad for the rest of the day.

I slumped again into my dark hole again now, I felt this worried for months now and I can't put up with it, each day I wake is just another day in hell.

I pareciate the support guys.

I have a brand new spider navi on my left hand near my thumb, it defiantly wasn't there two days ago and I can be 100% sure on that.

I constantly hurt.
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Offline ClassicNerd

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Re: A little support with liver problem
« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2012, 04:38:37 PM »
NeverAgain1 - that is exactly what my doctor told me was causing my upper right quadrant pain (also, my left rib sticks out more than my right rib). Some massage and physio made the pain go away completely. It's also straightening out my ribs. I've also been told to do some yoga to keep my muscles from getting tense.

Classic, you had a good doctor. No doctor, even one experienced in mindbody symptoms told me that tense, palsied muscles will refer pain to other parts of the body, even though I understood that the cause of my pain was chronic anxiety finally producing physical symptoms.  I had an MRI and was found to have a herniated thoracic disc, which doctors told me was, essentially, a lifelong sentence to chronic pain.  I wanted to be dead instead. No doctor told me, either, that "slipped discs" are a normal part of aging, and almost always asymptomatic.

Fortunately, Pan, on here pointed me to Dr. Sarno, which led to the mindbody conception.  But even after that, no doctor told me that tensed and palsied muscles refer pain to this point or that, so the fear lingered.  Careful study of anatomy made me deduce the cause and effect of what these muscles did, and eliminated the fear.  No doctor even laid hands on me to determine what muscles were tight and palsied.  Fortunately, a good physical therapist told me what muscles were tight and what they can do to a body.

Reason for the rant is because the  shoulder and pectoral muscles refer pain to the abdomen and liver area and elsewhere  So, again, OP, examine your muscles without emotion and fear, and you will have your answer and, most likely, your "cure".




I got lucky with my doctor! I'm sorry you were given the run around. I also had issues where I could hear my neck grinding when I turned my head (scary!) and my doctor and a student felt around my neck, did a few weird little tests where they tapped on certain areas and asked me to do stuff with my arms and neck in certian positions, and concluded that the muscles in my back and neck were extremely tense and might be throwing things slightly out of alignment, probably due to my years of computer use. They also explained to me that things like osteoarthritis and degenerative disc disease/herniated discs are all a normal part of aging. I was terrified that I had these issues when I visited my GP, but he told me it's a waste of time to worry since everyone experiences these conditions to some degree or another later in life.

TomTom27 - I feel ya on the ups and downs. I hate 'em! I wish this anxiety would just go away, but don't give up hope. Remember, even though you're experiencing a down now, an up is right around the corner. For me things like going back to work after the weekend trigger downs. Is there anything that might be triggering your HA? You can always come back here for support, that's what this site is here for!

As for the spider nevi, I also found a new one on my hand last year and I flipped out. It apparently means nothing. I'm betting your constant hurting has to do with anxiety. Try and see if your doctor can get you in to a massage therapist or a physiotherapist. 
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Offline Tomtom27

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Re: A little support with liver problem
« Reply #54 on: December 03, 2012, 02:10:46 AM »
first of all i would like to thank every one who posted in this thread, specially classicnerd and imobessed

i really think i should face facts now and admit im hep C positive.

the reason for my sudden anxiety issue was because sadly with out me having a clue i had an outbreak of hpv (im sorry to be so rank) i totally knocked me off my feet. i remember i kept it to myself for two weeks and googled all night and day and read some scary stuff, one thing i read is that with hpv is that it can pass over stuff on aswell so you get multiple things at once.

i remember back in 2007 during the chronic heavy cocaine use and unprotected sex, i didnt care at the time but the next day reality hits. anyway three months after my high risk exposure i was tested for every thing, all blood work hiv hep b c etc all clear. was tested again a few months after that all clear. i then was vaccinated against hep b

shortly after this i was also drinking heavily and sometimes in the morning when i would wake up i would have this crampy feeling mainly in my righ side and it would be difficult to breath, after a few minutes when i get out of bed it eventully goes. i shrugged it off but did get worried and went to doctors, he said its nothing. i still get it to this day, not every morning, its difficult to pin point when it happens it random.

anyway then (im sorry for this) light stools, not white or green just light brown orangy colour. again i didnt think anything of this.

2009. i remember when i went to turkey for a holiday i got a lovley tan, when the tan started to faid i was so itchy all over but only when i got out the shower or bath, i tried just wahing with water but didnt help. tan fades it seems ok.

2010, start feeling very tired all the time, find it dificult staying awake and end up sleeping or napping during the day. 

2011 persisant tirdness, my anxiety was low at this point and wasnt concerned but all i remember saying to everyone was i feel so tired!

End of 2011 i get my first spider navi on nose, thought it was harmless, started to get black bags under eyes.

Suddenly i have multiple spider navi under my eyes and forhead arms chest everywere.

to this present day i now have constant discomfort in my liver area.

Since june my life has never been the same and it never will be now. i was tested only for hiv sphylis after the warts and thought it was so stressfull it was finaly over and i can move on.  :(

i kept thinking in my head about hep cos i wasnt tested for it. up till now. for 6 months worried about it sick, i finaly got tested i couldn't bare the agony of waiting any longer.

negative hep C antibodys.

now twice i had that test but sadly from what i have read last night its S&it, its inepensive and done on mass scale so people like me go undiagnosed.

i thought many times back in june ending all this agony but i know that i have a family that loves me

im just sorry that i let everyone down.  :(





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Offline Tomtom27

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Re: A little support with liver problem
« Reply #55 on: December 03, 2012, 03:52:48 PM »
I'm on night shift at work. I slept for about 4 hrs today and got up early feeling so low.
Again I'm constantly searching for awnsers and feel like crap I went to another std clinic to ask questions about my tests, I feel let down.

It took so so so much courage to get tested the first time and that for me was going to be the end of the tourment but im it might as well be June again because now I'm such in a state I have no choice but to pay out for the test, I sure hope the doctor is right!.
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Offline ClassicNerd

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Re: A little support with liver problem
« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2012, 08:49:57 PM »
I'm so sorry you're back in this state again. Even with testing, it seems the anxiety doesn't go away. That is the problem with health anxiety. Despite repeated reassurance, we're still convinced we have diseases. It sounds like you have a lot of guilt and regret over the type of lifestyle you used to follow, and I just wanted to say that you shouldn't. We all make mistakes, we learn from them, and we move on.

The exhaustion can be from anxiety. I know when I'm anxious I feel really run down and awful. All of this anxiety surely takes a toll on your health and apperance. Look at today, for instance. You only slept 4 hours! Of course you're going to be tired! Sprinkle in a day or two here or there of 4 hours or less of sleep, and no wonder you're tired all the time! If I only get 4 or less hours of sleep one night, it takes almost a week for me to recover. Also, night shift is a killer!

HPV is very common (both the kind that causes warts, and the kind that doesn't). Virtually all sexually active adults have some strand of HPV. Some of my close friends have HPV, and they don't have hep c or any other STD/STI.

While reading your post, I was reminded of my own thought process when I'm struck by a medical condition or unexplained symptoms. I try and tie them all together and pin them on whatever condition I'm fearing most. The truth is, not all symptoms can be tied together neatly or explained. We tend to want explanations for everything, but that's not realistic. Bodies make noise!

Think, if you had hep c for that long, you'd have abnormal LFTs or an abnormal ultra sound. You've had two of thost tests and they've both come up negative. People on the internet who say that test isn't worth crap don't know what they're talking about. They're just trying to be sh*t disturbers. You had two of those tests done, and if they were so inaccurate (regardless of how cheap they are) doctors wouldn't use them to diagnose hep c!
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Offline Tomtom27

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Re: A little support with liver problem
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2012, 10:22:55 PM »
Hey nerd

Guilt does play a massive part in it, it's the risks I took that I can't beleive I would ever of put myself in any sistuation like that. I think to myself maybe I deserved it. Yes reassurance needs to be constant with me hence why I spend most my time from clinic to clinic get assured by these places that I'm ok and I feel good for 5 minutes. I sat with a nurse yesterday and spoke about it all and for that moment sitting there I actually felt anxiety flooding out and for one minute I actually thought my pains were not there because I was speaking about it face to face instead of bottling it up inside.

Yeah I'm cool with the idea of hpv really it doesn't bother me at all most people have it and my imune system cleared it up with no treatment. I think hep is a small possibility but I would of thought clymidia would of been more of a realistic thing to catch and I hadn't ever got that.

Despite my risks I took correct route in being tested afterwards and not just once either, I got about 4 hep c tests under my belt maybe 5 since 2006 and my imune response I would of thought would of been good so I'm sure it would of detected it early.

I read that the tests are that sensitive that false positives are common, I don't find much info on false negatives only a little but thats people with HIV and on chemo treatment etc when the imune system is suppressed


Hep c takes years to damage live like 20 to 30 and I have had 5 years so I can't see how it can do that much damage in that time and have spider navi by then.

I life style of mine and shift work can surely make you age faster.






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Offline Tomtom27

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Re: A little support with liver problem
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2012, 10:30:05 PM »
I also agree with what you say about pinning it on an illness,

If I didn't have hpv break out hep c probably would of crossed my mind but it's what I made out in my head. And because I have been cleared of all things sexually I'm holding onto that tiny percentage of people that might just get a false negative, unless I had numerous false negatives.


If it wasn't for the warts maybe I would be here now, maybe the pain wouldn't be here.

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Offline Tomtom27

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Re: A little support with liver problem
« Reply #59 on: December 04, 2012, 12:23:05 AM »
What makes it worse it that those last set of blood tests specially the hep ones were meant to be final, that was it, now I will need another test for hep c and put myself through the stress knowing that it will more likely be postive,it's going to be a really sh/t christmas
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