A serious poll - your belief system.

[Cheese]

I find there's too much hypocrisy and "bad" in religion to be worth following. I'd consider myself agnostic as I realize you can neither prove nor disprove the existence of god(s). It is comforting to think there is a place to go after death, but I'm not going to parade that around as truth.

However, so many people claim to be of a certain religion, then share what they claim the bible says and then some other figure claims to be of the same religion and says the bible says something completely different. Ask different people in the same religions on what "god" thinks of gay marriage or if dogs go to heaven, and you will get conflicting answers. That, to me, speaks volumes. Ask a priest who has dogs if dogs go to heaven, and he'll say yes. Ask a priest who doesn't care for animals if dogs go to heaven, and he'll say no. It's hard to believe that what they are saying is "god's" word because what they say is obviously heavily influenced on their own likes and dislikes first and foremost. Then they try to pass their individual likes and dislikes off as the word of god. It's just happened too many times to make me believe. From my observation, they're not speaking "god's" words. They're preaching their own and using god as a name drop to support their individual likes.

The "bad" is that most religion works on fear. Do this and you go to hell. The focus is on what NOT to do rather than what TO do. Obviously, not all, but the heavy handed approach is outdated. The instilling fear in others to get them to "do good" is old and not something worth supporting.

I also hate when people take credit away from you. You didn't survive some terrible occurrence. No, it was "god's will" that you survived. I don't fret on this much. They usually mean it as a compliment, but it still gets annoying.

Although this picture says atheist, I still like the words behind it.



It's something that puzzled me always. That because god doesn't help, it was part of a greater plan and it is his will. He knows best. And when he does help, he's the greatest. That kind of thinking doesn't make sense to me. If he doesn't help when great evils are around, then is he worth preaching over? Or perhaps the existence itself is questionable given the appearance of aide is so random. It's like some ancients throwing people into volcanoes to make it rain. If it didn't rain after 10 sacrifices, it didn't mean that sacrifices have nothing to do with rain. No, it meant they needed to kill more people to appease the gods.

This is not me trying to hate on religion itself. I think religion has helped many people. I don't really care for it, and I just stated why. It simply doesn't make sense with me. But just because it doesn't mesh with me doesn't mean it doesn't mesh with others. So, I completely respect that.

I just wish the world had that same mindset. A lot less bloodshed if we just live and let live.

[coeus]

I consider myself an agnostic and am actually quite surprised that there's an almost equal amount of atheist/agnostics and religious people based on the votes. I'll preface the next thing by assuming that most of the voters (and users here) are from the U.S and based on (possibly now a misconception) a generalisation that most then are Christian/Catholic.

My general rule is as long as religious people - whether slightly or devout - don't impose their beliefs on me, then I'll respect that and leave them alone.

[GenSec]

I consider myself an agnostic and am actually quite surprised that there's an almost equal amount of atheist/agnostics and religious people based on the votes. I'll preface the next thing by assuming that most of the voters (and users here) are from the U.S and based on (possibly now a misconception) a generalisation that most then are Christian/Catholic.

Yeah, i'm absolutely certain that if the majority of voters in this poll were British for example, then the athiest/agnostic vote would be much higher than it currently is.
Less than 10% of British go to church once a month (census figures). There's no doubt in my mind that a substantially larger ratio of Americans identify as Christian than British/Western Europeans in general.

In my town of a few thousand people, there is no church. No demand for one. On my street and the next street, nobody goes to church on a sunday. None of my neighbours on my street ever talk about the issue. In my local bar, nobody believes in God. I've asked them all over the years. Meanwhile my own parents were athiest and brought me up that way: for which i am eternally thankful. I have one friend who was brought up a Catholic but he rejected faith totally as soon as he was old enough to do his own thing and is an ardent athiest. Athiesm is just the norm here, and in my experience through life so far its just been the default setting for everyone and everything i've come across.

The only place i've ever met anyone with deep religious convictions is online... and they have all been either Canadian or American.

[UnreadierLizard]

Christian, non-non-denominational at this moment. Faith helps me get through some of my attacks - especially when I get stress due to my mother's still-semi active brain anureysm.

[hippieatheart]

I find it amazing there are no Jewish,Hindu,or Muslim people here, don't they get anxious ? 

[GenSec]

I find it amazing there are no Jewish,Hindu,or Muslim people here, don't they get anxious ? 

Yeah, i've been thinking that too!

I do know there have been 3 or 4 Muslims join this website in the past... but they never stayed very long. Two complained to me privately that people from Western backgrounds tended to be not very understanding of issues they wrote about. One once tried to discuss her marriage difficulties, and as soon as she wrote that it was an arranged marriage, quite a few members jumped in merely to condemn arranged marriages (not put off by the fact that she tried to explain that in many islamic countries this is quite common and is a cultural issue). They never actually addressed the problem issues she had sought support for. She never bothered coming back. Another once wrote about Islam as a faith and recieved replies which were highly critical, spoke about terrorism etc, whilst at the same time exhaulting Christ and Christianity. She never came back here neither after that.

There have been a few Jews as members here now and then... but again, they don't seem to stick around for very long. Others just aren't very religious; i know of at least 1 Jew here who identifies as athiest.

As for Hindu's and such... perhaps the language barrier explains that one to a certain extent? I'm not sure.

[tinam7]

I tried to be honest and asked for 2 votes because I am both atheist and ethnically Jewish. I ended up being denied but am making another appeal since the matter is raised. Then we'd have one Jewish vote and maybe it would embolden others to come forward too.

As an aside I think it's wonderful that people continue to show an interest in this fine thread. It could lead to what we need most in the world: peace.

[GenSec]

I tried to be honest and asked for 2 votes because I am both atheist and ethnically Jewish. I ended up being denied but am making another appeal since the matter is raised. Then we'd have one Jewish vote and maybe it would embolden others to come forward too.

As an aside I think it's wonderful that people continue to show an interest in this fine thread. It could lead to what we need most in the world: peace.

Tinam, as you'll remember we discussed this once before.... you may be Jewish, and you may indeed be a favourite of mine here, but i cannot give even you a second vote. Its impossible; the poll won't let me give people more than one vote each. I'm unable to give anyone a second vote. I explained to you previously that i would gladly give you a second vote but i just cannot do it because it won't allow me to do so. I never denied you a second vote as you seem to try and suggest here. I did not refuse you anything.

Furthermore, if you remember, you told me that you didn't particularly want to tick the Jewish box of this poll in the first place. You responded to me on this very thread that;

This is cute. I find a way out but am wanted back in the J-box. I know why: then things won't be so dull any longer. "Let's get her. They're nothing but trouble makers. She even wanted two votes, everyone else gets one. How shall we do away with her? We want blood."

As you can see, it was you who was originally very wary of any suggestion to give you two votes in the first place.

Anyway, this poll is enquiring about a person's faith (or lack thereof), not their ethnic group. If you live life as an athiest then for the purposes of this poll you are an athiest.

[tinam7]

Well, apparently I changed my mind. Who is in charge of handing out votes? Who makes the rules? Maybe others want two also. I may not be the only confused one here.

But, OK, I'll let it go, though I wouldn't mind meeting some others possibly like minded. Maybe this discussion will bring some results.

[GenSec]

Well, apparently I changed my mind. Who is in charge of handing out votes? Who makes the rules? Maybe others want two also. I may not be the only confused one here.

But, OK, I'll let it go, though I wouldn't mind meeting some others possibly like minded. Maybe this discussion will bring some results.

Well, apparently, i made the rules at the beginning when i set up the poll, and was in charge of handing out votes. But it doesn't allow me to change the rules once set. There's nothing confusing about it.

You or someone else may apparently suddenly have decided that they want two votes but the reality is that i cannot give them to you even if i wanted to.

[blindingallmyfearsaway]

Not sure how to explain this, but I will to the best of my ability...
While I'm not a religious person myself, I believe that everyone believes what they need to to get them by. I know of so many people who have said that God has helped them through their problems and although I don't necessarily believe in him, I believe that they do. So in that way, I think he exists, because people need him to. The same goes for all other religions.
Sorry if that makes no sense.. It does in my head, haha!

I have to add that if I am FASCINATED by Buddhism!

[GenSec]

I really have fiddled about with this poll today, but apart from adding and removing voting options it won't allow me to give a second vote. How frustrating because to be honest i'd be quite happy to give you one based on the reasons you give. I'm sorry, Tinam.

I'm gonna admit that though i am a rabid athiest who denounces all religious belief, i have been tempted by faith sometimes. At the end of the day i am human and i have been intrigued sometimes. I've (closetedly, lol) visited cathedrals and places of worship in my past. I do not hold all the answers and it would be highly arrogant of me to claim to do so.  But, well... at least i am open minded and am willing to cross barricades (so to speak) and look at what other people are saying even if those opinions differ from my own.

Kind thanks,
Gen.

[coeus]

Haha, GenSec.

I once thought that I was a full-fledged atheist who was repulsed by religion as well, going out of my way to actually dispute anyone who brings up the absolute truth that there is a God or so forth. But over time, I found myself realising that even with all the deductive logic out there and arguments (in fact, very valid) to disprove the existence of God, it wasn't worth my time and effort arguing with people whose beliefs were well-ingrained in their personalities and how they chose to live. The time spent alone telling others why religion and the existence of God is detrimental is enough for me not to be a conventional, Hitchens-like atheist.

Now I guess I would say I'm agnostic. There's no evidence to show that there's a God but there's also not enough for me to say that I can personally prove that there is a God. I wish I could be a complete atheist and claim that there is no God but I wouldn't have enough conviction to do so; so now, I'm a sceptic but still believe that the burden of proof is placed on religious people.

Otherwise, as long as people don't tell me what to believe in - we're all good!

[GlimmerOH]

I'm a sceptic but still believe that the burden of proof is placed on religious people.

Shouldn't the burden of proof be on God Himself?  I mean, if indeed He is real, He is the one to reveal Himself....it wasn't another believer or human that proved there was a God for me, it was a personal experience and quite profound.  It's the reason why there is no human who can convince me otherwise--they were not there to see/feel/hear what I did.

Not trying to convince anyone of anything here, just simply pointing out that if you look for answers in the wrong place, you can be assured to remain skeptical.  lol

[GenSec]

Shouldn't the burden of proof be on God Himself?  I mean, if indeed He is real, He is the one to reveal Himself....it wasn't another believer or human that proved there was a God for me, it was a personal experience and quite profound.  It's the reason why there is no human who can convince me otherwise--they were not there to see/feel/hear what I did.

Not trying to convince anyone of anything here, just simply pointing out that if you look for answers in the wrong place, you can be assured to remain skeptical.  lol

Hi Glimmer,

Theoretically that is a very sound argument. It makes sense (if God does indeed exist, of course).

However, even most Christians will admit that they have never experienced such a personal relationship with God as you claim to have experienced. They feel His presence in their life yes, thats why they believe in Him; but most will not claim to have "met" him directly as you have. Its more about faith that He is indeed there rather than personally seeing or speaking to Him. Many Christians say its all about faith that he is there, not that they have met Him personally.

Now what if we turned the argument slightly: if God doesn't reveal Himself to a doubter, how can he/she ever know? You've said yourself that other people's arguments and personal testimonies are not enough for another person to base a belief in God on. How can we blame a person for being an athiest/agnostic if God has never shown Himself to them? How can we blame that person for "choosing" the life of an unbeliever and send him to Hell? How can an athiest be accused of "rejecting" God when God has never even bothered to illustrate His existence? Only then can we choose whether to reject Him or not. We cannot reject something that we have no evidence is there in the first place. In fact if He does exist, it seems that He is rather detached and distant from the vast majority of people's lives - even those who go to church every sunday.

The bottom line here is... what do i/all we doubting Thomases need to do to convince Him to pay us a visit and settle this once and for all!? lol.

Best,
Gen.

[Clara_Destine]

There should be an option for "other." My belief system is best characterized by Spirituality and Spiritualism.

[coeus]

Christopher Hitchens defined God quite aptly as a 'celestial dictator'.

If God does exist, it would be a complete fallacy to the omnipotent and omniscient abilities that biblical scriptures claims he has and moreover, it would make him a fatalist and a determinist. It seems inconsistent that he allows us free will but at the same time appears to have moulded every one of us an inescapable, predetermined end. This seems really confusing for me.

Neither the Big Bang theory nor the existence of God explains to me the origins of where everyone came from and can provide me a basis for religious belief. Before the flaming begins - I understand the significance of the Big Bang theory, religion and God - unfortunately, it still leaves unanswered questions about our origins and ends. I acknowledge the scientific information about how we evolve as fact but I still feel hopeless that it's an epistemological mystery where we exactly came from. What's to say that our 'creator' or point of creation was a shiny, well-groomed, long-bearded man? It could be anything, even a Flying Spaghetti Monster! (Dawkins)

So, I have no choice but to become a sceptic. It's a journey for all to find out where we came from but I'm constantly reminded that this article of knowledge is left unresolved so the only thing that matters to me right now is my existence now and my relationship with others. In the end, I'm left with a lot of 'ism's' that characterises elements of my belief/religious system: a bit of scientific empiricism, Buddhism and agnosticism. Ugh!

One thing religious individuals have going for them is the fact it's so much simpler relating to one system of beliefs. In a sense, slight envy lol.

[GenSec]

There should be an option for "other." My belief system is best characterized by Spirituality and Spiritualism.

There was originally an option for "other", however i had to remove it in the end because alot of people who viewed this thread didn't give it much thought so they always ended up just opting for "other" as their default choice. The "other" option ended up huge - even Christians were voting for it, for some odd reason.

In the end to stop the poll looking silly and irrelevant, i had no choice but to remove the "other" option and make people think a bit harder about what their beliefs were.

[GlimmerOH]

To be sure, there was an element of faith existing in my heart before my experience.  I was open to the Lord revealing Himself to me, and the experience was personal--something that left no doubt about God's existence and His Love for all.

Paul's 'road to Damascus' experience was unique to him as well, yet it brought hope to those who struggled with doubt.  Although many of the unbelievers never had a personal calling to evangelize or lead others to Christ, they found hope in the possibility that some people actually DID see/hear from God.

God is about personal relationship (which is why He designed us to be in relationship with each other).  No one understands God's thoughts, if they did, there'd be no need for Him.  There will always remain an element of mystery around creation and certain events.  Our human fears and need for understanding prevent us from being open to an idea or reality that is not easily explained.  It's why science is easier to believe in than God.

[tinam7]

We have a tough Administrator here but I'm moved to ask for 2 more votes: Agnostic and Buddhist. Agnostic because if he exists I'd sure like to tell him a thing or two. Buddhist because sometimes when I meditate I like to envision myself under a tree, peaceful like Buddha and Buddhist teachings are mighty sensible.

[coeus]

Similar to tinam, I feel inclined to categorise myself as Buddhist simply because I engage in mindfulness meditation at times but (without offending anyone) thinking about the prospect of Enlightenment and eternally sitting under a tree is completely far-fetched. Meditation is a profound and peaceful experience but once I start referring to some of the spiritual concepts in Buddhism - my meditation starts to lose value.

[tinam7]

So what do you do with your mind during meditation, or what is your goal, coeus, if I may ask? I seek neither Enlightenment nor sitting eternally under a tree.

How would you define your profound and peaceful experience? Of course, you need not address this. Maybe I can learn something because I am fairly free with myself as to where my mind can go during meditation. I can never really get it to stay still for very long so I sometimes find mantras or sayings or just focus on breathing or counting, etc.

[coeus]

Unfortunately, I don't meditate regularly but when I do, my goals vary at times. I tend to use guided meditation like those made by Jon Kabat-Zinn who gives gentle advice about what mindfulness meditation is. My experience of mindfulness meditation is simply to take some time out to connect with myself. This sounds really cliched because everyone wants to obviously connect with myself. It's difficult to describe the experience because of its subjective nature.

It tends to involve moment-by-moment gentle exploration of thoughts that flow into my mind. These thoughts could range from different substances and have different emotions relating to those thoughts. When I'm meditating, I try to keep it simple: sitting there and observing my thoughts. Now this isn't an easy task - I end up getting caught up all sorts of mental gymnastics. Judging, labelling, reacting to those thoughts and this can really interfere with meditation.

Occasionally, a profound and peaceful experience tends to happen when I'm meditating and I simply am there, experiencing everything from sounds to thoughts as what they are, not as what my mind thinks what they are. As I type this, I can sense how this may sound like spiritual trickery and I always had reservations about meditation. Meditation is supposed to be an effortless experience with practice. When I meditate, it's never to relax or to get away from something but to embrace everything even if it's only for one moment.

Hope this helps.

[GenSec]

We have a tough Administrator here but I'm moved to ask for 2 more votes: Agnostic and Buddhist. Agnostic because if he exists I'd sure like to tell him a thing or two. Buddhist because sometimes when I meditate I like to envision myself under a tree, peaceful like Buddha and Buddhist teachings are mighty sensible.

Oh Tinam, for Christ's sake!!! lol! I've told you already that i cannot do it because the poll won't let me!

So you are now Agnostic and Buddhist today are you? What happened to Athiest and Jewish? Are you sure you won't be asking me for 4 votes next?! Wah wah!

All i will say is this: if God exists, he has alot to answer for. In that sense we certainly would both want a word or two with him, Tinam! And if He does exist, at the moment i do not judge Him to be worthy of my love, prayers or worship. Proving a God is one thing; proving that he is the God Christians believe Him to be is quite another. In the Old Testament one of the first words that comes to mind in order to describe him is definitely not "loving". lol.

[tinam7]

Dear Administrator, you need to make some adjustments because humans are very complex. For one thing, I did not give up any votes, but think Agnostic is important because I do not like to shut any doors. And part of Buddhism tells us that well being is within our own power; that we, in fact, create many of our own problems. So, if you can avoid going through the roof, I'd like to ask for 4 votes. Two plus two makes four: Jewish, Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist. Can I click all four? I see there is already one Jewish vote.

Coeus, I sure can relate to what you say, esp. the part about meditation not being easy. Yet it is a special, quiet, uninterrupted time with ourself, something to look forward to. I lock myself in the bathroom. I seek to embrace myself, to enhance physical and mental health, to breathe in positives and exhale negatives. Believe meditation has magical healing powers. Have not missed a day.