9/11 vs everyday death

[JustaLittleOff]

Does it make anyone else mad that we mourn the lives of 3000 people who died on that day every single year when at the same time millions of other people were dying of other causes such as cancer, hunger, aids, drunken drivers, 0119 etc.... this post isnt meant to sound insensitive, but i dont understand what makes these 3000 lives more important than anyone elses? must we rip open this scare tissue every year and remind ourselves of the carnage, and the meaningless war that followed it claiming more lives than the attack itself? why are we not talking about other innocent people who have died due to attacks during war triggered from the 9/11 attack? and by other innocent people im talking about the men, women and children of iraq and afghanistan. does that not matter? what do you all think?

[GlimmerOH]

9/11 was an intentional taking of innocent lives, premeditated murder and evil, with the intent to shake the foundation of fellow humans' 'safety'.  A declaration of War on the innocent, the defenseless, for the purpose of lasting terror.

A conscious decision/plan to shake the core of humanity with millions of collaterally damaged lives.

A death by cancer, aids, famine, etc.  is not an intentional act of one human against another/multiple.  The death of a loved one is painful, yet the fashion in which one leaves this earth certainly does matter in terms of how we grieve/try to makes sense of the loss.

[GenSec]

I would agree with the first response here.
 
Would also add a further dimension of my own. The massive loss of civilian lives in Iraq is also a tragedy: especially now we know that Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, nor with terrorism in general. Nor did it possess weapons of mass destruction. The excuse now used to justify the war, that Saddam was a "bad man" is pretty weak. There are alot of "bad men" in the world, and some of them are firm friends of the USA.

You correctly refer to the "meaningless war". I agree with you there, justalittleoff.  It can also be classified as an "illegal war". And i also agree with you that there were alot more innocent lives lost in the attacks during these wars. The last time i checked the losses were in the hundreds of thousands.

You ask why we don't speak about those innocent lives? Well because 1) the mainstream media generally does not report much on this 2) they have been demonised to a certain extent as our "enemy", lumped in with the terrorists and 3) put bluntly, alot of folks in the West simply don't care very much that hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians have lost their lives. They are not American lives, British lives. To a certain extent i would even add that the fact they are Muslim does not endear them to alot of folks in the West neither. All things combined, they simply do not evoke the same level of sympathy from alot of us here in America, in Britain, in the West generally.

The unmanned drone attacks in Pakistan are also a tragedy: a recent statistic i saw said that for every 1 terrorist killed by one of these drone attacks, 6 innocent civilians are killed: men, women, children. This doesn't bother the US military because no American lives are endangered, so the drone attacks have been increasing month by month. Everyone of these innocent deaths has an extent family who mourn it: another family after another who now join the ranks of those who blame and hate America and the West in general for their grief, their pain. And we would be deluding ourselves if we did not face the reality that this breeds further terrorism against us, creates further recruits for evil organisations like Al Qaeda to exploit. People who wish to strike us in revenge. Vengeance breeds vengeance. The sad fact is that we are not defeating terrorism: rather, we are already providing organisations like al Qaeda with the next generation of recruits for their twisted ideology of hatred.

9/11 was a tragedy: what followed it was also a tragedy. The whole thing is incredibly sad. The past 10 years have made the world a much sadder and more fearful place for everyone. I predict the consequences will be with us for generations to come.

[crazygirl1]

It could have been you. It could have been me. Instead it was them. It was someone else's child, someone else's heart & soul.

 After that my nephews joined the Army , made the sacrifice to go out & fight for their country, to protect us. it doesn't seem like it huh? Today you do not have to flinch at the sound of fighter jets overhead, bombs exploding..buildings crashing down around you.....thanks to the ones who fight to protect us. If you'd have been close enough to smell the smoke that day, you'd get where I'm coming from.

You think of lost loved ones on the anniversary of their death, right? We think of them...all of them.

[floridaguy65]

"And we would be deluding ourselves if we did not face the reality that this breeds further terrorism against us, creates further recruits for evil organisations like Al Qaeda to exploit. People who wish to strike us in revenge. Vengeance breeds vengeance. The sad fact is that we are not defeating terrorism: rather, we are already providing organisations like al Qaeda with the next generation of recruits for their twisted ideology of hatred."

I do understand your sentiments, GenSec. But, this was a massive unprovoked terrorist attack on innocent people. From where was this vengeance derived that warranted the attack of 9/11/01? Was it as simple as them saying "The West" shouldn't be 'interfering' with our homelands thus you 'infidels' must die. I suggest that there need not be much impetus needed for the zealots that have twisted Islam to the point of believing that such attacks and jihad is their divine right. Sure, they can use the ensuing actions on the part of the U.S and its allies in furthering their propaganda...this is a timeless motivational tool used since the dawn of conflict. But, this was an unprecedented attack...never before seen in history (at least our history). So, what were we to do? Sit back and wait for another attack? Did we know another (or many) wasn't following? Of course, in retrospect, and with hindsight being 20/20, there will be questions raised about the actions of the U.S and its allies following 9/11. And, certainly, I have not agreed, personally, with every decision along the way. Tough decisions had to be made and they had to made quickly with the best possible information and evidence available at the time of the crisis. I'm sure, there was little credence given to the fact that we might "make them mad and hate us more" after 3000 innocent people we slaughtered. I can always read your posts, though, Gen and have some additional insight to think about...there are, generally, two sides to every story as we know...and good debate can be useful, certainly.  But, like you said, the whole thing is sad. And with that, I agree, wholeheartedly.

Peace:)

[peepo23]

9/11 was a tragedy: what followed it was also a tragedy. The whole thing is incredibly sad. The past 10 years have made the world a much sadder and more fearful place for everyone. I predict the consequences will be with us for generations to come.

Absolutely agree. Sadly, the likes of Cheney, Wolfowitz, Bolton, even Blair will probably twist it to say that the Arab spring was because of their actions. Thankfully Rumsfeld had the sense to say that it was impossible to know.

[GenSec]

Sorry, but none of this justifies Iraq (for the reasons i have already given) and neither does it legitimise the hundreds of thousands of innocent civilian deaths. None of this explains why it was right to do some of the actions we did. Joining the army to fight in Iraq had nothing to do with the events of 9/11 and neither did it protect me from anything. As the slogan was in Britain at the time from those opposed to the wars after 9/11, those troops are there by government command but "not in my name". No army soldier out there is protecting me.
Even if i was at 9/11 and personally experienced the carnage and death... surely just using these emotions as an excuse to attack anyone we don't like in the world would be wrong, a sign of poor judgement? It worries me today that some people still use the grief and fear of 9/11 to justify everything. Hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths, illegal wars, all answered with the cry "3000 people died at 9/11" or "i was there and experienced it you didn't". Sorry, it doesn't justify anything. Not even the unmanned drone attacks, which are steadily increasing.

"I do understand your sentiments, GenSec. But, this was a massive unprovoked terrorist attack on innocent people. From where was this vengeance derived that warranted the attack of 9/11/01?"

I stated that this was an unprovoked attack on innocent people, floridaguy. Nowhere did i say otherwise. Did i not call al Qaeda "evil" at least twice?

"I suggest that there need not be much impetus needed for the zealots that have twisted Islam to the point of believing that such attacks and jihad is their divine right."

I totally agree here too. These characters subscribe to an evil hate filled ideology. But why cannot we sperate the zealots from the innocents whom have been killed by our reaction? Why is their death somehow ok and justified because of 9/11? Thats what the original poster is also asking.

"Sure, they can use the ensuing actions on the part of the U.S and its allies in furthering their propaganda...this is a timeless motivational tool used since the dawn of conflict."

I agree here too... the US and its allies has done more for al Qaeda recruitment over the past 10 years than anything else, sadly.

Also keep in mind... groups like al Qaeda and the Mujahadeen were originally trained, funded and armed by the CIA and the US military against the Soviet Union during the Cold War... like it or not, our governments helped create the monster of fundamentalist Islamic terrorism and thought they could control it. Now innocents are paying the consequences, including ordinary Americans like those at 9/11.

People need to take a critical balanced view of everything, not hide behind "there are two sides to every story so my version of what happened is right for me, full stop." If that is the case then al Qaeda's version of what happened is equally valid - which all of us here know it isn't. Far from it. We should attempt to search for the facts, the truth. Not hide behind different stories that suit different belligerents.

[GlimmerOH]

The excuse now used to justify the war, that Saddam was a "bad man" is pretty weak.

I guess that depends on who you are talking to.  The relatives/survivors of the town bordering Turkey who were gassed to death might think it a very strong reason to go after him (and wonder why it took the world so long to stop him).

War is never 'justified'--sometimes, though, it's inevitable.  I think it's wrong to paint Americans in general as war-hungry or brutal in their actions....there certainly are some, just as you'll find in all countries.  That's the nature of evil, which seems to be a human trait (if we're talking evolution, lol).  I'd like to sit in my computer chair and pat myself on the back that I live in Canada, and we're known as 'the peaceful, non-violent' country/nation....but I'd be fooling myself if I didn't admit to feeling safe knowing that the US military would come to our rescue if we were attacked on our soil. 

Most countries (at least the political side) have no problem latching onto the USA when they need 'muscle'.  Why should the USA take the brunt of criticism for that dependency?

All innocent lives that have been lost are tragic.  Regardless of gender, age, religion, or race.  I don't think there's a single person here that would refute that, and that's not what is being debated here.  I've made plenty of poor decisions in the midst of a crisis....you the do the best you can with the information you have.  You also take responsibility for the consequences that follow.

[GenSec]

The relatives/survivors of the town bordering Turkey who were gassed to death might think it a very strong reason to go after him (and wonder why it took the world so long to stop him).

In that case we should be toppling the Saudi Arabian government, the Bahraini government, the Yemen and Jordanian governments instead of the US signing alliances with some of them and selling them arms. Saudi Arabia is America's closest ally in the Middle East and it frequently tops the list of Amnesty International for its disgusting human rights violations. As is also the case with some African dictatoral states with appalling human rights records. And many Latin American dictatorships in recent history whom America supported and enjoyed great relations with.

I think it's wrong to paint Americans in general as war-hungry or brutal in their actions.

Never said that neither. I spoke of innocent Americans caught up in a tragedy.

I have made my points and am finished on this thread, as i feel the next stage of this discussion will be to paint me as so al Qaeda loving, anti American person who thinks Americans are all war hungry or brutal. All things i have never said. I will not allow myself to be painted as something i am not. Period.

The facts are the facts. Trying to change the discussion so as to be able to focus on my own supposed nasty motivations do not answer them.

[crazygirl1]

GenSec--every soldier would protect you, don't doubt that for a minute. IF for some crazy reason you were in need of emergency help, rescue...any soldier..ANY soldier would lay down their life..for you, and only for you if need be.

 This is close to my heart and fires me up ...

[GenSec]

GenSec--every soldier would protect you, don't doubt that for a minute. IF for some crazy reason you were in need of emergency help, rescue...any soldier..ANY soldier would lay down their life..for you, and only for you if need be.

 This is close to my heart and fires me up ...

My grandfather was in the Navy for years and seen active combat. I agree with you that there are many good and brave people in our armed forces, crazygirl. I admit i couldn't face what alot of those people have to face everyday out there. I'm not questioning the soldiers: i'm questioning the goverments who sent them there, and the reasons given to them and us.

[floridaguy65]

Gen, yes the facts are the facts. And, I have to believe that the USA and its allies, overwhelmingly, made their decisions based upon the facts that were clear and present and attainable at the time. It is quite easy to go back and, NOW that almost all of that available information has been verified or dispelled, formulate a decision of what 'should have been done' back then in the months following 9/11. Mistakes made...of course. Lessons learned? Maybe, we'll see.

You're a debater at heart Gen, I can appreciate it, certainly:)

Certain topics are always gonna get a rise and emotional, personal responses. We know you're not pro-Al Qaeda, or anti-American:)

Peace:)

Peace:)

[GenSec]

Peace to you too, floridaguy!

I can always be sure of a thought provoking post when you enter a thread, floridaguy.

Gen.

[GlimmerOH]

I apologize, I should have clarified that I was no longer directing my comments at you, Gen, for the second paragraph.  I see that it was hard to read it as a generalized comment, but it was meant as such.  There are quite few people who do paint the USA as brutal and war-hungry, just as they paint all muslims as terrorists.

[crazygirl1]

floridaguy rocks all threads he posts on doesn't he? LOL  we love it

[GenSec]

floridaguy rocks all threads he posts on doesn't he? LOL  we love it

He's helped me on numerous threads i've written in the past, about whatever concern i've had at the time. He sure does rock!

[Cuchculan]

The one spanner I would like to throw into the works is that the US government never had to backing of NATO or the EU to invade Iraq. The British always tag along with the US because it makes them feel bigger than really are within the EU. So the US and the British went it alone against the wishes of NATO and the EU and the UN for that matter. Bush wanted to finish what his father couldn't. It was a personal thing. The exact same situation is happening with Iran today. But Bush is not in power. We don't see Iran been invaded.

[JustaLittleOff]

It could have been you. It could have been me. Instead it was them. It was someone else's child, someone else's heart & soul.

 After that my nephews joined the Army , made the sacrifice to go out & fight for their country, to protect us. it doesn't seem like it huh? Today you do not have to flinch at the sound of fighter jets overhead, bombs exploding..buildings crashing down around you.....thanks to the ones who fight to protect us. If you'd have been close enough to smell the smoke that day, you'd get where I'm coming from.

You think of lost loved ones on the anniversary of their death, right? We think of them...all of them.

I know I would still flinch at the sound of bombs exploding and buildings crashing down, who wouldnt?. I don't think the invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan has done anything to make people feel safer. Attacks could happen at any time. But im not scared of any attacks, not after 9/11 nor before it. Yes, and im sure if i was there during the attack, i might think differently. Reminding everyone of it every year isnt exactly helping people get over those fears either.

As far as my loved ones go, I could think about them on any given day, not just the anniversary of their deaths. When i do think about them, i think about memories of them during life, not their deaths. Their deaths i have done my best to block out, and in some cases i dont even know when the anniversary is.

And as for the Iraq war i agree with GenSec. Nothing justifies going there. I firmly believe that it's up to the countries own people to stand up for what they think is right/wrong. Too bad the rioting in Egypt didnt happen long ago so the Iraq people could have taken some notes, rebeled, and we'd be what.....3 trillion dollars richer right now. Total waste of money considering Sadam had nothing to do with 9/11.

[sixpack]

The one spanner I would like to throw into the works is that the US government never had to backing of NATO or the EU to invade Iraq. The British always tag along with the US because it makes them feel bigger than really are within the EU. So the US and the British went it alone against the wishes of NATO and the EU and the UN for that matter. Bush wanted to finish what his father couldn't. It was a personal thing. The exact same situation is happening with Iran today. But Bush is not in power. We don't see Iran been invaded.

lots of americans were disgusted by our government's decision to go into Iraq

[peepo23]

And, I have to believe that the USA and its allies, overwhelmingly, made their decisions based upon the facts that were clear and present and attainable at the time.

I don't believe that's true at all FlGuy. Legendary investigative journalist Bob Woodward for instance, in his book Plan of Attack, describes how Bush and his top men had decided early on in his presidency to oust Saddam by force. They were always going to go into Iraq, they just had to think of the best thing to pin it on - this of course came via 9/11 and the fabricated threat that Saddam might supply Al Qaeda with nuclear material (totally unfounded). It's not like the US and allies 'stumbled' on some facts, it was all made up. I hated this fact because I used to be a bit of a liberal interventionalist, and I can be a bit hawkish at times - but this was plain wrong and I no longer hold those ideas much anymore.

Blair was Bush's perfect ally, because Blair has always been a liberal interventionalist. This was first evident during the Kosovo crisis.

[GenSec]

Can i believe my eyes - a Scotsman (me), an Englishman (peepo) and an Irishman (cuchculan) all agreeing with each other over something?! Did you ever think you'd see the day?! Ha ha!

[GlimmerOH]

The Dessert storm war was not illegal, and to some extent, Bush was fulfilling his father's wish to eliminate Saddam....However, Saddam, being the not-so-bright guy he is, did make claims of having abilities that he clearly did not have (ie:  access to nuclear weapons, etc.).  I believe Bush knew the claims were false, and maybe capitalized on Saddam's stupidity...but I think there is way more information out there that clearly we will never find out in our lifetime.

I'm personally glad I'm not the one making these decisions about war/defense of a nation.  As far as 'evil' goes, the US is not nearly as scary as some of the current powerful nations.

[peepo23]

yeah the US is not so scary now, but I tell you, it was when Bush was in office - I can't remember ever feeling genuinely worried about many international situations, but I really did start worrying about Iran, mainly because the feeling was that Bush and his men could well have launched strikes there. How disastrous that would have been.

[GlimmerOH]

Agreed.  I hold my breath whenever Iran, N.Korea or Russia is in the news....seems like a ticking time bomb regardless of who is in power in the West.

[GenSec]

yeah the US is not so scary now, but I tell you, it was when Bush was in office - I can't remember ever feeling genuinely worried about many international situations, but I really did start worrying about Iran, mainly because the feeling was that Bush and his men could well have launched strikes there. How disastrous that would have been.

Do you know, peepo, that Iran/Persia has never invaded in aggression any state in over 200 years? Their peace record is better than nearly all of the Western nations. I feel no threat from Iran. Iran makes no claim on any territory belonging to its neighbours.

Thats the two nations America would love to stoke up trouble in and then interfere like they did in Libya - Iran and Syria. Both are anti-Isreali and neither have ever tried to find favour with the USA. Their removal from the Middle East would further US interests in the area no end. Syria's president Assad is actually British educated and quite highly educated in fact: unlike either Saddam or Gadaffi. Assad's wife is British, he met her whilst studying over here. Unlike any other Middle Eastern leader i have seen, Syria's president Assad is a shy, quiet spoken, clean shaven, sharp suited,  intelligent and thoughtful person. You see him think and ponder before opening his mouth. He doesn't shout and swear or decry the West as some great satan. Actually watch him give interviews on Muslim newschannels... he is nothing like the monster he is portrayed in Western media, nothing like Saddam, Gaddafi, etc. I was actually quite impressed by his grasp of economics and international politics.

I genuinely believe that alot of the news reportage on Syria is false, twisted, and designed to turn us against Syria. Watch the Russian newschannel RT... you will see a very different interpretation of events in Syria. Syria has largely an old style Soviet socialist, state-run economic system (which America and its corporate business elite also detest). President Assad is detested by alot of Muslim fundamentalists certainly, but the situation concerning his popular support is not as clear cut as Western media outlets would have us believe. Assad is not some dictator hated by his people. Like all societies, there are complex fissures at work. Our Western media focus on and blow out of proportion a minority who, oddly enough, are the very Muslim Sharia Law extremists we claim to so detest. These are the elements Assad is battling against for the future direction of Syria. I believe Assad to be a sincere man. He has promised elections in 3 years time once the threat of armed brigands and Muslim terrorists are dealt with in his country and public safety is restored... and i believe him. I also believe him when he says that America is stoking up this extremist discontent, as they also did this to the old Soviet Union (and denied it at the time, blatant lies).

What i do fear is an aggressive unprovoked strike by Israel on either nation (like it did to Egypt during the Suez crisis, so it does have past form) as lets face it Israel has defied international law time and again throughout its short history. Israel has a history of aggression towards its neighbours which the West then has to clean up on their behalf because they cannot let Israel fail. Then when Iran and Syria retaliate to defend themselves, America will get involved militarily because again, it cannot let Israel fail. The Britain, naturally, will follow. And once again we are sucked into another illegal war.

There is one glimmer of hope.... Russia. Russia has made it quite clear that they will never allow the US to intervene in Syria, nor will they allow any US backed UN resolutions against Syria to be passed in the Security Council. They will veto any move to declare a Libya style NATO UN backed mission in the region. That, hopefully, will keep the peace.

But, whenever i hear of Israeli aggression towards Palestinians, Egypt, Lebanon (well, i'll give you a _____ and you fill in the most recent Arab nation neighbour of Israel at the recieving end, rather than me going through the whole list) my concerns rise.