Other beliefs that are not your own

[anonytic]

This is a rather experimental thread. People generally tend to argue and defend their religious beliefs, but what if we tried something different?

This question is for everyone. Atheists, Theists and everyone inbetween.

What do you think is nice or positive about other beliefs that are not your own? Kind of like if you're an Atheist, what do you think is good and positive about any other religion? and if you're a Theist, what do you think you can learn from Atheists, Agnostics and other religions too?

If possible, I would prefer to avoid arguments.

I'm agnostic most of the time, sometimes atheist.

I have seen how a person's belief in god has brought about a strong belief in themselves. There's a certain peace in that. Sometimes I wish I could find a similar capability to believe strongly in my agnostic self as I constantly question the world and my worth.

[Cuchculan]

I am not into the catholic / christian thing. But I see God as a good thing. It gives people something to believe in. Something to focus on. So it is all good. The way I view things is that what you believe in is more important than the God. In others words belief is important. In what? That part is up to you. But to hold no belief is like having an emptiness within. For example. People think of heaven. Others say that heaven doesn't exist. Come death. Which has to happen to us all. Those who believe in a heaven and a God will see their maker. They will have a kind of peace about them. Which others who don't believe will lack. To imagine that after death is nothing at all. Just try and picture that for a moment. It is impossible to do. So to have no belief at all it is like you will be lying there on your death bed thinking ' this is it '. The end. In the mind of the believer their will be more to come. They won't be thinking it is the end. But does it really matter what you believe in? Once you hold onto a believe. If I do read any books along this sort of line I would tend to go for Buddhist material. Just fits in with all I believe about life as we live it. But I also love to read Native American material. Which isn't that far different from Buddhist material. You are born again. Come back to live another life. The NA tradition tells us we can come back as a tree, a river, a lake, a rock. They see life in everything. Which is a nice concept. Everything around us is life. So they don't like to damage anything at all. They protect everything. Everything has a spirit within. Such a wonderful concept. Buddhism is much the same. We are like a time grain of sand on a vast beach. Meaning life is not all about just us. There is a much bigger picture. We are just a small part of this overall life. But it teaches you to treat people in such a way that you would like to be treated. There is no reason to be bad to people. Hatred is a waste of time. Because the hater feels the pain. The person they hate feels nothing at all. Just so many logical thing associated with it. Things you can use in every day life. You don't have to be anybody special to read such material and use it. So belief to me is important. What you want to believe in is up to you.

[sixpack]

what a nice thread anonytic   

[GenSec]

I am a lifelong solid athiest. I believe in no divine being, nor even the concept of humans having a spirit/soul.

I'm afraid i am more of an orthodox Marxist on these matters... religion once filled a void in the human understanding of his environment and his place within it, but now thats all changed. Its unneccesary anymore and now presents more of a hinderance than a help. It holds human understanding back.

Unfortunately, i cannot believe that living with error because it makes someone happier for their life is enough of a justification. Anyway, Mother Therea suffered much depression, sadness and loss until her death because she knew deep down her belief in God was an error. It did not give her peace in life, nor peace at the end. But she pretended it did. Certainly, she kept up the pretence to fool others and even in her private correspondence called herself a "hypocrite". I wonder how many live this double life? Whatever, on this is not in doubt: many folks do not find peace because of belief. Quite the opposite in fact. The public image and the private reality often contrast. This is often the case with Christians in particular.

Neither can i say that religious belief makes Christians nicer on a personal level. In my experience, sometimes the opposite is the case - because they use God as a self-superior cloak to attack others and make them feel small. So no, not even on a personal level do i find any benefits nor positives from faith. I have acquaintances who are deeply religious and they are very nice people, but i reckon there is no link between personality and faith: they would be just as nice and just the way they are now if they were athiest.

This may sound like a 19th Victorian century athiest speaking here, but sorry, i cannot think of anything positive contributed by thiesm, especially over the past 200 years.

Will we see a Christian complimenting the positives of athiesm, or shall they be noticeable by their absence whilst this remains a thread where athiests as well as agnostics doff their caps to theism? I wonder.

And before people jump on board and accuse me of arguing... this was presented as a question: all i am doing is replying.

[tinam7]

It may be that believers do well for themselves even as they purport to be so loving to others. I have lived the hypocrisy of Christianity and countless have died for it.

I am atheist or agnostic on good days. I favor the teachings of Buddhism which I do not consider a religion. It starts out quite intelligently with, "Life is Suffering." There are ways to make it better, touching on expectations, on cravings, etc.

The good thing I can say is that this is a never ending, always compelling subject. So thank you for the thread.

[GlimmerOH]

I have learned a great deal from atheists and people of other religions.  One thing that was important for me to learn quite some time ago is that my Faith is not my religion.  I do not need to defend the traditions or the actions of those who worship in the same denomination as myself, as some of them truly do not know God.

I do not defend religion or religiousness, as it has been used as a platform for wars and hurtful arguments.  They are merely traditions that give us humans the means to segregate who *we* feel are worthy and those we deem lost.  This truth was shown to me through some atheist friends, and it helped me to clarify for myself where my heart rests--and that is with God.  He doesn't need a building in order to grow the Body of Christ.

God's love is shown through people of other religions as well.  It took me some time, but the Lord did open my eyes and heart to receive Him through others, even if they did not recognize His presence.

[sixpack]

gen

I do not wish to engage in argument here about Mother Theresa.  However you seem to think she didn't believe in God.  That wasn't what was talked about in her book.  It was more that she wanted a personal relationship with God. It was that she didn't feel she had a personal realtionship with Him.  It WAS not that she didn't believe there was a God.  I have the book right here in front of me.


One of her quotes:

"If I ever become a Saint----I will surely be one of "darkness".  I will continually be absent from Heaven--to light the light of those in darkness on earth"

Here is a passage about what she called her "dark" times:

"This letter to her confessor back in Skopje is the first instance in her correspondences where she refers to "darkness"  It is difficult to grasp precisely what "darkness" meant for her at this time, but in the future the term would come to signify profound interior suffering, lack of sensible consolation, spiritual dryness, an apparent absence of God from her life, and at the same time, a painful longing for Him."

It goes on to say that  she lives by faith, surrendoring with love and confidence in God's good pleasures.  She rose above the fear of suffering and said "now I embrace the suffering even before it comes, and like this Jesus and I live in love."

I have read a few excerpts from her book.  It overwhelmingly comes across as her sadness that she didn't FEEL God to which she so deeply longed for.  It didn't mean she didn't believe in God.  I read, briefly, of her envy of another sister who she found to be so full of God's spirit.  She longed to feel God the same way.  Again not that she didn't believe in God but it was her relationship that felt dry.

I doubt I could read the book for 1.  her intense pleading that her diaries wouldn't be made public 2.  it is so darned dark and fraught with sadness or depression that I don't think I could take it.  You may want to pick up the book and give it a read.

[GenSec]

No argument from me, six!

On later reflection, my earlier post on the "hinderance" of thiesm was probably was a bit too direct and one sided, and you're right... i should really read the book for myself before passing comment.

I've been in alot of pain today with my fingers, i have the doctor soon but anxiety is sky high and its probably making me a bit cranky... though, its not applicable as an excuse. I wrote what i wrote and i chose the tone myself.

I can admit where i've been the one in error. You make a legitimate point, six.

I'll hang fire til i read the book for myself and get the full picture(rather than read excerpts from it online), as i should really be doing in the first place.

Be well.
Gen.

[sixpack]

thanks gen,

hey you may have the same opinion after reading the book.  I, however, reading just the bits seems like a woman sadden deeply that she didn't feel God the way she thought she should or needed.  At any rate her road to Sainthood is being laid.

[anonytic]

Thanks for the replies 

This thread was originally an experiment to see if people could switch sides or at least pretend to switch sides and understand an alternate view. Kind of like to understand a person, you would have to think like the person, or like in couples therapy where they get the couples to switch roles, pretend to be the other person and discuss their feelings. 

But that can be pretty hard to do with strong beliefs and religion. Although the thread has not really gone that way, I do like the tone (learning from other teachings) the thread has picked up.

what a nice thread anonytic   

Thanks!

If I do read any books along this sort of line I would tend to go for Buddhist material. Just fits in with all I believe about life as we live it. But I also love to read Native American material. Which isn't that far different from Buddhist material. You are born again. Come back to live another life. The NA tradition tells us we can come back as a tree, a river, a lake, a rock. They see life in everything. Which is a nice concept. Everything around us is life. So they don't like to damage anything at all. They protect everything. Everything has a spirit within. Such a wonderful concept.

This is really interesting. I've never considered Native American material for some reason. I should read up on it. There's a certain sense of wonder in nature based concepts.

I am atheist or agnostic on good days. I favor the teachings of Buddhism which I do not consider a religion. It starts out quite intelligently with, "Life is Suffering." There are ways to make it better, touching on expectations, on cravings, etc.

The good thing I can say is that this is a never ending, always compelling subject. So thank you for the thread.

Thanks!
Many people don't consider Buddhism to be a religion. Even some of my buddhist friends. Although it is some sort of teaching. A way of life. But for simplicity, I'd consider it as a religion just for this thread. 

Neither can i say that religious belief makes Christians nicer on a personal level. In my experience, sometimes the opposite is the case - because they use God as a self-superior cloak to attack others and make them feel small. So no, not even on a personal level do i find any benefits nor positives from faith. I have acquaintances who are deeply religious and they are very nice people, but i reckon there is no link between personality and faith: they would be just as nice and just the way they are now if they were athiest.

This may sound like a 19th Victorian century athiest speaking here, but sorry, i cannot think of anything positive contributed by thiesm, especially over the past 200 years.

I do get what you mean, but It doesn't have to be about religion overall or about christianity. Is there no tiny trait or teaching in any religion that you think could be positive? It could be about any religion, even wicca. 

I do not defend religion or religiousness, as it has been used as a platform for wars and hurtful arguments.  They are merely traditions that give us humans the means to segregate who *we* feel are worthy and those we deem lost.  This truth was shown to me through some atheist friends, and it helped me to clarify for myself where my heart rests--and that is with God.  He doesn't need a building in order to grow the Body of Christ.

God's love is shown through people of other religions as well.  It took me some time, but the Lord did open my eyes and heart to receive Him through others, even if they did not recognize His presence.

I love this! You've somehow managed to combine ideas from two completely opposite beliefs and formed your own idea on how to live your own life.

[Carryon]

gen

II doubt I could read the book for 1.  her intense pleading that her diaries wouldn't be made public 2.  it is so darned dark and fraught with sadness or depression that I don't think I could take it.  You may want to pick up the book and give it a read.

Her statement was not from the book but a private letter:

Yet less than three months earlier, in a letter to a spiritual confidant, the Rev. Michael van der Peet, that is only now being made public, she wrote with weary familiarity of a different Christ, an absent one. "Jesus has a very special love for you," she assured Van der Peet. "[But] as for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great, that I look and do not see, — Listen and do not hear — the tongue moves [in prayer] but does not speak ... I want you to pray for me — that I let Him have [a] free hand." The two statements, 11 weeks apart, are extravagantly dissonant. The first is typical of the woman the world thought it knew. The second sounds as though it had wandered in from some 1950s existentialist drama. Together they suggest a startling portrait in self-contradiction — that one of the great human icons of the past 100 years, whose remarkable deeds seemed inextricably connected to her closeness to God and who was routinely observed in silent and seemingly peaceful prayer by her associates as well as the television camera, was living out a very different spiritual reality privately, an arid landscape from which the deity had disappeared
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1655720,00.html#ixzz1VOZ8GNDZ

[Carryon]

If the bible never existed or was incontrovertably accepted to be totally false, what basis would there be to believe one, none or a hundred gods solely on word of mouth?

[GenSec]

I do get what you mean, but It doesn't have to be about religion overall or about christianity. Is there no tiny trait or teaching in any religion that you think could be positive? It could be about any religion, even wicca. 

Hi anonytic, I have read The Analects by Confucius, and there were some aspects of Confucianism which i came to have some favour for... however, like Buddhism, Confucianism is more of a life philosophy than anything else. Confucius didn't even believe in a God and refused to speculate on what happens (if anything) after death, even when directly asked to do so by his pupils.

I've never looked into Wicca or Buddhism or anything... i betray my Western bias whenever i am asked to comment on "faith" because i tend to focus my attentions on the Abrahamic understanding of it.

Very interesting (and unusual) way of dealing with this topic, not the traditional "here is what i believe as an athiest/thiest" kind of manner... kind thanks for starting this thread.

[sixpack]

Gen

you are going to have a good laugh now-----  I started reading the book.  I've moved on into chapter 4.  Right now it is about how Christ worked within her and how she so completely wanted her life to be only for Him.   So, so far it is a pretty interesting read.


Anontyic---for me it is a rather hard question in that I really don't "know" any atheists to make such an opinion.  HOwever a dear, dear friend of mine now considers herself an agnostic.  She and I have shared so many things with each other and I find her THE person (other than my hubs) that I always want in my corner!!!

[Carryon]

Faith versus religiousness. Jesus doesn't need a church. All above. Sound like a good start. But let's see: Does that mean one espousing it does not oppose teaching evolution in schools, agrees that public schools and publicly sponsored events should be free of prayer, the Ten Commandments should not be displayed in public institutions, women have the right to chose, gay marriage is a right, the US is not a Christian nation.

[GenSec]

Who exactly is alleging that Christ worked within her, six? I thought Theresa said that she couldn't develop a personal relationship with Christ. Is it a Catholic book? Is the author Catholic? Maybe they interpret her as having a relationship with Christ that she couldn't feel herself.

Britain is different to the USA. Here, athiesm in ordinary life is the norm. Similar to what Six said, i don't know any religious people in real life. None of the folks in my school were religious. At university i had no religious friends. Of course i met Christians in my travels, but it was infrequently and not very meaningful.

On my street nobody attends church - in fact the church in our town closed before i even moved out here! And our town has a population of about 3000. Yet, the church died off through non-attendance.

The only Christian folk i know in any decent way are acquaintances i have made here on this website. Thats all i can go on to form my opinions of Christians as people, on top of my readings about religions by myself.

I'll say something else - i never met "full on" Christians till i joined this website. In Britain, Christianity is very "moderate" in general - they accept the Theory of Evolution, accept that the Bible is not the literal word of God. Laugh off Satan. They are barely indistinguishable from everyone else. But this website has shown me that in America, "full on" Christianity - which accepts the Devil, the Bible as literal truth and subscribes to Creationism - is a power all on its own. Its still very exotic to me!

I remember earlier this year the May scare, when some US Pastor said the world was going to end, the Rapture... in the UK we were totally bemused about American coverage of it. We had interviews with academics and Priests on our major news channels rubbishing it and analysing why a significant amount of American Christianity is so different to our own: and the efforts Christian churches like Mormons are making to export their brand of faith here. It was very interesting.

[sixpack]

The first part of the book is about her becoming a nun.  It has letters she wrote about how much she loves God and how He is calling her to certain ministry.  Some of these letters are to her "confessor"  I forget the name of the priest now.  The other letters are to the archbishop describing how she was called to the slums.  It took quite a bit of discernment before she was allowed to start the  "work" as it was called.  As I said, I'm just in chapter 4.  A lot of her "darkness" she describes is equated to what the Spanish Carmelite mystic St. John of the Cross apparently experienced as well.  The hubs has the book about him too but he says he's tried to read it 4X and just can't get through it.  According to this book--this is called "interior darkness" which is nothing new in the tradition of Catholic Mysticism.  We went out to dinner tonight.  Hubs and I had a nice chat about Mother Theresa.  There is no doubt this extraordinary woman lived a VERY difficult life following what she believed to be God's calling.  The book was edited and commentary by a priest who knew her.

However I think if you and I are to continue this convo, it should probably be via PM as it has nothing to do with anonytic's OP.   

[sixpack]

remember earlier this year the May scare, when some US Pastor said the world was going to end, the Rapture... in the UK we were totally bemused about American coverage of it. We had interviews with academics and Priests on our major news channels rubbishing it and analysing why a significant amount of American Christianity is so different to our own: and the efforts Christian churches like Mormons are making to export their brand of faith here. It was very interesting 

can't take much stock in the media on that gen.  Most americans laughed at it as well.  We happened to go to church that day (Saturday) our priest began his sermon by saying, " um I didn't prepare a sermon today because the world was ending."  lol.  Members began clapping and then he said, "I lied, I prepared a sermon".   all tongue in cheek and went on to say that we all do not know the day or time etc etc.

[Carryon]

Mother Theresa's admissions, whatever the cause which is immaterial, demonostrates how easy, and probaby very common, it is to be poseur on religion. If she could do it, imagine how many far less spiritual people around us less that they are willing to openly admit. It's a rare thing: a free lunch.

[sixpack]

I am not into the catholic / christian thing. But I see God as a good thing. It gives people something to believe in. Something to focus on. So it is all good. The way I view things is that what you believe in is more important than the God. In others words belief is important. In what? That part is up to you. But to hold no belief is like having an emptiness within. For example. People think of heaven. Others say that heaven doesn't exist. Come death. Which has to happen to us all. Those who believe in a heaven and a God will see their maker. They will have a kind of peace about them. Which others who don't believe will lack. To imagine that after death is nothing at all. Just try and picture that for a moment. It is impossible to do. So to have no belief at all it is like you will be lying there on your death bed thinking ' this is it '. The end. In the mind of the believer their will be more to come. They won't be thinking it is the end. But does it really matter what you believe in? Once you hold onto a believe. If I do read any books along this sort of line I would tend to go for Buddhist material. Just fits in with all I believe about life as we live it. But I also love to read Native American material. Which isn't that far different from Buddhist material. You are born again. Come back to live another life. The NA tradition tells us we can come back as a tree, a river, a lake, a rock. They see life in everything. Which is a nice concept. Everything around us is life. So they don't like to damage anything at all. They protect everything. Everything has a spirit within. Such a wonderful concept. Buddhism is much the same. We are like a time grain of sand on a vast beach. Meaning life is not all about just us. There is a much bigger picture. We are just a small part of this overall life. But it teaches you to treat people in such a way that you would like to be treated. There is no reason to be bad to people. Hatred is a waste of time. Because the hater feels the pain. The person they hate feels nothing at all. Just so many logical thing associated with it. Things you can use in every day life. You don't have to be anybody special to read such material and use it. So belief to me is important. What you want to believe in is up to you.

I've always found Native American's connection to the earth very interesting.  I mean I never thought about coming back as a tree all that probable but I like the respect of the earth that NA's tend to have.   We live in NY with Native American Nation just south of us...Nowadays though, the most I hear in the news is that the treaty between the US and their nation shouldn't be broken. 

I've not read anything on Buddhism.  Maybe after the I finish the book I'm presently reading, I'll give one a try.

[tinam7]

I look at nature and think, "I don't mind returning as a pine or aspen, or a flowering bush, or fragrant rose or carnation or just one wild flower in a field of many. Yes, I've thought that many times with no knowledge of NA's outlook.

Have read some on Buddhism, but do I know much? No. So maybe we can learn more. The best I have is a graphic book on Zen for Beginners. Here and there they smack each other which surprised me. But being a lowly human I didn't mind it (j/k). Have other books on Buddhism including Daily Wisdoms, Daily Inspirations, a Pocket Buddha Reader. Think I really tried to get into it, but never got very far. I just happen to open a page to this: If happiness hasn't been recognized when alone, a group of many people will be a cause of distraction.

[sixpack]

I look at nature and think, "I don't mind returning as a pine or aspen, or a flowering bush, or fragrant rose or carnation or just one wild flower in a field of many. Yes, I've though that many times with no knowledge of NA's outlook.

Have read some on Buddhism, but do I know much? No. So maybe you can report back. The best I have is a graphic book on Zen for Beginners. Here and there they smack each other which surprised me. But being a lowly human I didn't mind it (j/k).

how about sunflowers or moonflowers?  the opposites basically and my favorite in a garden... however I have neither in my gardens now. 

Re: buddhism--- I think cuch has read quite a bit.  Cuch do you have a good suggetion for a beginner to read???

[tinam7]

Sunflowers? Sure. Not familiar with moonflowers. I was adding to my post while you posted. Now the "modify" icon is gone. Can a post be changed without it? I've wondered about this.

[Zaelaura]

I don't find any good coming from any religion that cannot come without religion...
The one positive I see in there being a god is only that it would give me the opportunity to have someone who can thoroughly explain the nature of the universe in its complete complexity beyond what I will have the opportunity to learn in my lifetime as scientific research continues to advance.

[Carryon]

I don't find any good coming from any religion that cannot come without religion...
The one positive I see in there being a god is only that it would give me the opportunity to have someone who can thoroughly explain the nature of the universe in its complete complexity beyond what I will have the opportunity to learn in my lifetime as scientific research continues to advance.

That is Einstein's metaphorical, non-theistic use of the word "god" -- to describe the universe's mechanism, which man will never fully understand, the allegory in "2001". The tantalizing thing is that it (the universe is comphrehensibly incomprehensible.

As for religion, just the rules for satisfying an anthropomorphic god and building theological and political power to control people. Created by humans for humans tapping survival instincts that probably will end the species on the planet before an asteroid inevitably hits the planet and the process reboots.

I don't understand why people can hope for reincarnation when they don't have a clue where they came from before birth. Makes no sense.