Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution

[Zaelaura]

A myth.

[peepo23]

This is quite interesting...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13874671

[Carryon]

A friend explained the reason he walked away from his church and never looked back. Part of his religious training included a parade of speakers, ex-drunks, criminals, drug users, felons, who in the lowest depths of the depraved lives in prison or face down in gutter found Jesus and got better, always in combination with jail time, detox  and other help. My friend who led a straight life  up until then, wondered if falling to rock bottom was the only time Jesus jumped in. If so he was out of luck. It was a bad deal that he bought into for too many years at the urging of his parents and peers. He turned his back and was not struck down but flourished. Went on to get in engineering degree and then became an MD.

[GenSec]

Few people remember the other scientist who proposed the theory of evolution at about the same period as Darwin did - Alfred Russel Wallace. The Victorians for a time treated them as joint discoverers of the theory and both used to be invited to speak at academic gatherings.

Wallace suffers from 2 handicaps - he was religious/spiritual, and he was socialist. The socialist aspect (which made him convincing denounce corrupting "survival of the fittest" concepts in order to graft them onto human society and economics) killed his image to the Victorians: on the other hand his spirituality killed his image in the 20th century. However when i was at university a professor there was writing a book about him and his brand of evolutionary theory (which was different to Darwins). I remember chatting to him about it, and it was very interesting. Especially his take on inter-human relations.

If only Wallace had put his discovery to print instead of giving a copy of his own independent work to Darwin to ask his opinion - he'd be the man credited for posterity with enlightening mankind as to evolution!

[for those who don't know the story - Wallace independently discovered the theory of evolution and sent his work to Darwin for his opinion before Wallace decided to go and publicly release his research. Darwin had discovered the theory by himself previously, but decided never to publish his work or speak about it. When he realised another man had stumbled upon the same theory, Darwin kept Wallace's research and secretly hurried to get his own research published first. He did not tell Wallace a thing until Wallace discovered Darwin's actions from others when it was too late. For a short time Wallace believed Darwin had plagiarised his work but then realised the truth. The academic Victorian community for a while allowed them both to share the credit and accolade and Darwin had no complaints, but Wallace was gradually dropped from the recognition and the "theory of Darwin and Wallace" became simply Darwin's theory].

[peepo23]

Yeah, sucks to be Wallace.

[tigerpaw]

Evolution is absolutely contrary to being a Christian.

The theory of Evolution, and ladies in gentleman it is a theory, which has never been proven, or based on any scientific fact, at its most basic hypothesis has NO need of a Creator. Without the need of a Creator, you throw out the Book of Genisis, deny the fall of man into sin, and have no need of a Savior in Jesus. EVOLUTION and the belief in CREATION cannot coincide with each other.

Carryons argument that, "Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution", has in one sentence been refuted. Carry your abandonment of the belief, which you have self professed to have known, about the atonement of sin, by a divine Savior's sacrifice on the cross, and His unmerited favor on His creation, is no reason to spend your every waking hour debunking it.  That's sad.

[GenSec]

Honestly.... i agree with tigerpaw on this one.

The Bible states quite clearly that God created the world in 7 days and made man in his image. So why would he evolve us from apes?

Also, why would a Creator as perfect as God need such an imperfect vehicle as evolution to create species and such? He is all powerful - He can create whatever he wants, whenever He wants. He doesn't have to sit and wait for evolution to slowly and imperfectly do the job.

I am an athiest. But i agree with tigerpaw - from my limited reading of the Bible, i don't see how evolution and Christianity can coexist at all. And neither did Darwin. He seen them as mutually exclusive. Thats why for years he wrestled with his conscience about revealing to the public his research and kept it hidden for years - because it conflicted with his Christian faith.

[Carryon]

Evolution is absolutely contrary
Carryons argument that, "Christian Faith Requires Accepting Evolution", has in one sentence been refuted. Carry your abandonment of the belief, which you have self professed to have known, about the atonement of sin, by a divine Savior's sacrifice on the cross, and His unmerited favor on His creation, is no reason to spend your every waking hour debunking it.  That's sad.

It appears that you confused me with the author of the essay-article starting this thread. He also wrote an expansive book on the subject of his essay. Beyond that I do not understand a word of your paragraph, honestly. I dropped out as a young boy. Can't abandon something which I never learned.   

[GlimmerOH]

CO, do you claim to disagree with the article you posted?  If not, there's no confusion.

Well stated, Tiger.

[ashcrash85]

Nicely put Tiger.

My question is what is the point of beating to death the Christian faith. And same goes for believers who spend their time beating the dead horse that is someone else's choice to believe.

The world would be so much quieter and nicer if people would stop trying to shove their ideas down other's throats and working hard to show someone else to be wrong.

[peepo23]

The world would be so much quieter and nicer if people would stop trying to shove their ideas down other's throats and working hard to show someone else to be wrong.

It's just when some christians or people of faith try to talk about evolution, it's really hard to resist.

[tinam7]

If I'm not mistaken there is the fervor to spread the good news, to increase the flock, to save souls. There are blessings and prayers extended to all. There are solutions to problems by giving them to the Lord.

And if you dare suggest that you committed no sins knowingly or intentionally, that you have to atone for your own behavior, you are typically an immediate outcast, a pariah. And then if you dare suggest that history forgotten tends to repeat itself, all dialogue is over.

[GenSec]

I live in Britain, and though i have met plenty of Christians in my time i had NEVER met a Creationist Christian until i went online and began talking to Americans. In Britain, the idea of Creationism just never took hold here.

Maybe poor lonely sixpack, the only Christian to claim belief in Evolution and her faith in this thread, should emigrate to Britain!

I suppose it also depends on whether a Christian considers the Bible the word of God, or merely a collection of writings by many men over history who were inspired by the spirit of God. Most Christians in Britain would follow the latter belief, and admit that the Bible should not be read literally and it does have errors and mistakes written into it. Adam and Eve is just a symbolic story rather than an actual event where mankind fell into sin. Thats how i was taught it in Religious Education classes. My teacher - an old former Church of Scotland Minister that educated my mother in years gone by and a man i became personal friends with - scoffed at the idea that it could be a literal truth. And the Church of England across the border also approves of the theory of Evolution being taught to children in school. So, i (and the vast majority of individuals in this country) have came away from our youth believing that rationality should be used as a valuable tool to interpret and weigh up its many passages. Be wary of what looks suspicious or what looks merely like the personal/prejudical beliefs of the writer himself. A writer whose views perhaps reflect more the age and society he lived in around 2000 years ago, not the mind of God as such.

Understanding the Bible to be a work inspired by the spirit of God but written by the fallible hands of (many) men allows scientific theories and breakthrough's to be combined alongside personal belief in a Creator. This i what the vast majority of British believers have done.
 

[sixpack]

Understanding the Bible to be a work inspired by the spirit of God but written by the fallible hands of (many) men allows scientific theories and breakthrough's to be combined alongside personal belief in a Creator. This i what the vast majority of British believers have done.
 
 

and quite a few americans.  In the US there is a HUGE spectrum of beliefs here.  Some are VERY conservative in their beliefs while  others have a more liberal or better term progressive belief system.  Even the Pope  mentioned fairly recently that evolution and big bang are not uncongruent with the belief in God.  I don't recall his actual terms and I GUESS I could go and look it all up but I don't feel compelled to do so.

[sixpack]

okay I looked up the info on evolution:

http://www.000128-vs-evolution-clash-absurdity/

and will see if I can find a reference to "big bang"


okay several articles--didn't pick the Fox News one. lol

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/pope-benedict-no-conflict-between-big-bang-and-religion/

note that the article mentions that is has been centuries since Catholics believed or adhered to the idea that the Adam & Eve story was the literal truth.

[Carryon]

Illogical: Evolution has to be proven (and has), but god, for which there is no proof except a collection of dusty disputed books from antiquity written by men, has to be disproven.

Logical: God is the theory, evolution is fact.

[sixpack]

the first one on evolution didn't work

just copied the pertinent info:

Pope Benedict XVI said the debate raging in some countries — particularly the United States and his native Germany — between creationism and evolution was an “absurdity,” saying that evolution can coexist with faith.

.
The pontiff, speaking as he was concluding his holiday in northern Italy, also said that while there is much scientific proof to support evolution, the theory could not exclude a role by God.
 
“They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other,” the pope said. “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.”
 
He said evolution did not answer all the questions: “Above all it does not answer the great philosophical question, ‘Where does everything come from?’”
   

[Carryon]

Ideas more often powerful than understood rule the world. People are entitled to their opinions but not their own facts.

[GenSec]

What the Pope cannot explain is why God would NEED or USE Evolution.

With a point of his mighty finger, surely God can create all in an instant. Evolution is a very slow and imperfect mechanism to ensure the survival of life on Earth. Species come and go too. I don't understand why God would need or use Evolution. God seemed to be fascinated by reptilian dinosaurs for millions of years before he ever thought about humans!

If man was special and he built the Earth to house him, why did he wait thousands of years to evolve him from an ape? And why did he wait millions of years before even thinking about creating a mammal at all?

I respect the Pope's attempts because it shows a genuine intelligent thought about what scientific theory has taught us, and he has obviously taken time to ponder the matter - but i don't see how it can work. It feels to me like he is hanging on to the coat tails of scientific theory, a tidal wave of advances in knowledge which threatens to leave his faith battered and broken far behind it.

He has 2 choices as a Christian, illustrated on this thread: somehow bend Christian theory to accomodate it, or plain deny it and put his fingers in his ears. At least the Pope is thinking about it all, i'll give him that!

[GenSec]

I've been reading an athiesm book for a few days, and i found two quotes i would love to add here!

First by Thomas Jefferson:

"The priests of the different religious sects...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight, and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subdivision of the duperies on which they live."

And this one by Friedrich Nietzche:

"God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers?"

Such has been the impact of scientific truths like Evolution on traditional faith... note i add the word traditional.

[Zaelaura]

Well to be honest, were I a god, I would be much more entertained by watching my miniscule creatures gradually change and transform over time for the sake of relieving my eternity of boredom than I would by just going 'poof - a man' 'poof - nylon eating bacteria'

[Carryon]

The Pope's position has been out there for some time. He concedes that god did not create man as people thought from Genesis. This rejects Genesis. Case closed on that for Catholics. However 30% of the US population claim to be evangelicals who are told the bible is the inspired word of god. They are focus of the article; the author considers them a threat to scientific knowledge.

The pope said the we so don't know what started in all. Only man asks that question and that capacity arose with evolution along with language and other features. Our ancestor apes like all other animals do not ponder the unknowable. We evolved into beings that need answers, often false ones as history has shown when science arose and man applied scientific reason, only in the last millennium. Religion is a product of man's mind for those answers, a by product of evolution. The brain that produced the atomic bomb, concocted religion and god thousand of years before.

We will never know the answers we seek because we are adapted to the universe in which we live and constrained by it. We see the colors that we do because they dominate the sun's visible light output. Different evolutionary paths are probable in different places universes, much like animals have better sensory abilities than we do for their environment. Evolution, that which is inferior fails through slow trial and error runs through everything in the universe. We see it everywhere now in real time in the far reaches of space. We can only hope that  man will shed himself of religious dogma which has caused more suffering than healing. There are few hopeful signs.   

[tinam7]

The unimaginable suffering caused by religious dogma, by religious oppression, by religious persecution is to be ignored, denied, obviated.

Better to believe in original sin. We are all sinners; start from there. Or better yet, we are full of love and forgiveness. Maybe Islam too, especially regarding women or gays.

[Carryon]

The unimaginable suffering caused by religious dogma, by religious oppression, by religious persecution is to be ignored, denied, obviated.

Better to believe in original sin. We are all sinners; start from there. Or better yet, we are full of love and forgiveness. Maybe Islam too, especially regarding women or gays.

The choice of words? The unimaginable suffering should never be obviated or ignored but remembered to serve as a warning, a monument to man's imperfection and capacity for unimaginable cruelty. If anything is an orignial sin it's not the myth in Geneisis but religion itself, all of them. Religion more than belief is the problem. Religion is the manual for inhumanity, intollerance and comfortable ignorance, as we have seen with Islam most recently, a religion that holds back the back, especially women. In the Dark Ages it was Christianity doing the same, even worse. Women are second class in all the Jeudeo Christian religions. You couldn't dream up such craziness. Whoops: man did. 

[tinam7]

With us the women don't sit with men in Temple. Orthodox women wear wigs when married, long skirts, covered arms. As part of their morning prayer men thank God for making them men, not women. Women have no role, basically servants.

There are many more Arab women now where we live. Many days we are close to 90 degrees. These women walk in layers of clothing all covered from head to toe. Then there are Americans with outfits that barely cover anything. So sometimes I think it all has to do with men and sexuality. I say men because women will generally do what men favor. Jesus was a remarkable exception. But why did his mother have to be a virgin? Why do priests have to be celibate? Why must men display their fecundity with a trail of children?

The big factor in the world now is Islam of course, again religion rearing its threatening head. There are warring factions within Islam. But non-believers are gaining. For the first time in my life I feel free to even talk about it. It affected me from the moment I was born. People were already being carted off. So I guess the subject is of endless importance and interest.