catholic church wont baptize my baby!

[buzzskill]

 I am stressed! I emailed my Catholic church to see if they would baptize my one year old daughter. I told them I wanted to be honest and explained that my wife and I currently are not attending mass. But asked if my daughter could be baptized anyway, so she could be forgiven of original sin. I was informed by the head priest that this would be impossible because we would be expected to be people of faith and that baptisms are not magic.
 I had explained that we both have faith in god but are just not currently attending church. This was not good enough for him.  I feel like the only person who they are punishing is my baby by denying he a baptism   because of her parents.  Does anyone have an opinion on this?   

[Carryon]

I am stressed! I emailed my Catholic church to see if they would baptize my one year old daughter. I told them I wanted to be honest and explained that my wife and I currently are not attending mass. But asked if my daughter could be baptized anyway, so she could be forgiven of original sin. I was informed by the head priest that this would be impossible because we would be expected to be people of faith and that baptisms are not magic.
 I had explained that we both have faith in god but are just not currently attending church. This was not good enough for him.  I feel like the only person who they are punishing is my baby by denying he a baptism   because of her parents.  Does anyone have an opinion on this?

Time to reflect on the the priests/church's priorities, your choice and your faith like my relatives and friends. My sister in law never had her kid baptized; nor have most of my friends. Only hard part was keep it secret from the grandparents for years, but not that hard.

[Grandma]

Hi buzzskill -

You may be able to find a priest at another Catholic church who feels differently.

Many years ago, a child in my caseload died in a fire.  The local priest refused to do the funeral because the child's mother did not go to church.  I'm not Catholic myself, and I didn't know how to help the mother.  I called my own minister and he put me in touch with a Catholic priest who he knew from clergy associations, and that priest did the funeral.

In my opinion, a priest who punishes a child because he disapproves of the parents is petty and not deserving of respect.  Of course, since I know little about Catholocism, my opinion is uninformed and may not make sense within the framework of the church.

Grandma

[Carryon]

Hi buzzskill -

You may be able to find a priest at another Catholic church who feels differently.

Many years ago, a child in my caseload died in a fire.  The local priest refused to do the funeral because the child's mother did not go to church.  I'm not Catholic myself, and I didn't know how to help the mother.  I called my own minister and he put me in touch with a Catholic priest who he knew from clergy associations, and that priest did the funeral.

In my opinion, a priest who punishes a child because he disapproves of the parents is petty and not deserving of respect.  Of course, since I know little about Catholocism, my opinion is uninformed and may not make sense within the framework of the church.

Grandma

The exit for faith without a scorecard for my friends and relatives began when they were judged by the priest as not meeting his starndards.

[sixpack]

I am stressed! I emailed my Catholic church to see if they would baptize my one year old daughter. I told them I wanted to be honest and explained that my wife and I currently are not attending mass. But asked if my daughter could be baptized anyway, so she could be forgiven of original sin. I was informed by the head priest that this would be impossible because we would be expected to be people of faith and that baptisms are not magic.
 I had explained that we both have faith in god but are just not currently attending church. This was not good enough for him.  I feel like the only person who they are punishing is my baby by denying he a baptism   because of her parents.  Does anyone have an opinion on this?

buzz

My family are practicing Catholics.  What you are experiencing is not uncommon. Actually it happens daily.  Many priests (it may be an actual requirement of the diocese)require the families wanting Sacraments to be active members of the parish.  The Catholic church we are members of now, however, has a priest who welcomes any family wanting to Baptize their child.  His thinking is that all children should be welcomed.  It is also his hope that the child's parents will then embrace the faith and bring the child up in the Church.  However he sees that (in many cases of those who are not practicing Catholics but want the Sacraments), after the Baptism the next time he sees them is for First Reconcilation/First Communion.

My opinion, ultimately, is this though---there are a lot of people who only want their church for certain reasons--weddings, baptisms, funerals...  If the are no "reasons" to come to church, they don't.  We do see this a lot at our church.  Personally, I think that can be confusing to a child---a child sees Church/Faith as important only for the 'special" occasions.  Baptizing a child in any faith would be pretty much without meaning if parents only see it as symbolic and don't bring the child up in the Church (and I mean any faith, not just Catholics). This is not a judgment of you or your wife because church doesn't make your belief in God less than.  I think you and your wife need to decide how important bringing your child up in church is and then decide accordingly.  As the Priest you spoke to said, "baptism isn't magic".  It is the beginning of your child's faith journey. 

[sixpack]

 

This is not a judgment of you or your wife because church doesn't make your belief in God less than.   

meant to say  this is not a judgmen of you or wife because NOT attending church doesn't make your belief in God less than

[buzzskill]

 Thanks to all for your thoughfull responses, I think after reading all your input, it's a toss up between choosing another Church/priest, or maybe choosing another religion all together. I still would like to get my daughter baptized.  Doesn't the bible say "judge not.."
 Here is a copy of my original e-mail to the priest and his response..

 My name is Steven ******, my wife ***** and I have a one year old baby *******, we are members of your congregation although we do not attend mass. We were married by a Catholic priest in a Catholic church 6 years ago albeit she is Lutheran.
 My question is about my daughter, I want to have her baptized, but as we no longer attend mass and don't want to make any promises about doing so right now. We also don't have anyone who could truthfully fulfill the duties of  godparents.
 I don't believe this should exempt my daughter from being baptized. If she chooses to have a more intimate relationship with the church as she grows up, we will support her. 
 Would it be possible  have her baptized by a priest without the ceremony or other usual things that go with a baptism? Basically all we want is to have her blessed with the water poured over her head the appropriate prayers, with just the three of us present along with a priest.
 Please pass this on to the appropriate officials. Thank you on behalf of me and my family.

Steve,

I have to inform you that there is no way we could baptize your daughter under the circumstances you mention.  We baptize infants only because of the faith of the parents, in virtue of their own practice of the faith.  Baptism isn’t magic.  Without the faith of someone who will take responsibility for the education and formation in the faith of the infant, we can’t do it.  After reading what you wrote, I am puzzled about why you would even want to have your daughter baptized.  What would be the point?  Fr. ****

[sixpack]

buzz

I understand the desire for Baptism.  We baptized our children.  Our children are being raised as Catholics--they go to religious ed, they attend church regularly and we, as their parents, are teaching them our beliefs.  This is our responsiblity.  The responsiblity we chose when we baptized our kids.  When our children are grown, they may choose not to practice the faith.  They may choose a different religion or decide they don't want it at all.  That will be their choice. 

Reading your e'mail to the priest, you seem to be suggesting that you really have no intent on raising your child as a Catholic.  It seems you just want to sort of 'hire' the priest and here are the things you want out of it.  Part of Baptism is saying you want your child raised as a Catholic and promise to take responsibilty in doing so.  The idea that she may choose to have a more intimate relationship with the church as she grows up, absent guidance from her parents, is likely to not happen. 

A child can be Baptized at any time.  There are any number of older children who are baptized at our church.  It is my understanding that Baptists wait for baptism until the person is much older--maybe 12 or so.  My suggestion is that you may wish to wait until you and your wife are ready to commit to Catholic church (or  another faith).  and ready to be an active part of your child's religious education and help form her faith.  Once you are ready--Baptism, First REconciliation, First Communion and then Confirmation will have much more meaning to not only you but your child as well.  It may be that Catholic isn't the faith you are comfortable with.  Perhaps, since your wife is Lutheran, her faith may be a better fit.  However I think a Lutheran minister may have some of the same concerns as a Catholic Priest.

Buzz  I'm going to send you a PM about what the Catholic Baptism means.  It is much, much more than removing the stain of original sin, which really isn't the "REAL" reason for baptism.  You don't have to read it or agree with it.  I just thought it may be helpful for you to see why the Priest responded as he did.

I wish you the best with whatever you and your wife decide for your precious daughter.

[Grandma]

Thank you, sixpack, for explaining what baptism means.  Now that I understand, I realize that my opinion in my previous post is, as I suggested it might be, mistaken.

[sixpack]

Thank you, sixpack, for explaining what baptism means.  Now that I understand, I realize that my opinion in my previous post is, as I suggested it might be, mistaken.

 

[GenSec]

I have two vies on this, my own view - and a suggested view for the original poster.

My suggested view for the original poster is this - after reading that rather curt reply from the catholic priest, i would seek out a baptism by another Christian church altogether. I would not baptise my child a catholic.

This priest is indirectly giving you terms. Firstly, he wants you and your wife to become active catholics. Secondly, he insists you indoctrinate a child with the catholic worldview. And yes, the word is INDOCTRINATION. Before you child even has reasoning and their own personality, you are to drum into them why catholicism is the so called "true faith". Any parent who brings up their child stiffly and blinkeringly in one faith and why that one is the only true one - only educating their child in the beliefs they themselves hold, is even called child abuse by some athiest academics like Professor Richard Dawkins. I must largely agree with him. That is not fair on your child. Your child has a right to make up their own mind, not have his world limited and prescribed from him in the beliefs you CHOSE to believe. Give your child that same right and choice.

I would never agree to those terms.

It also interests me how the soul of this child is not one of his priorities: he judges you and your wife first, and then reflects this on the child. Thats hardly what i would call Christian. The child is damned for the sins of the father, so to speak. I must say, my opinion of this catholic priest is very low. And if his words do indeed reflect the opinion of the catholic church, then my opinion of that is low too (although my opinion of the catholic church due to its history and persecution CANNOT be any lower than what it now is).

Now, my own view! 

My mother did not baptise me or my older sister. Why? Because she believed it was my right to chose which faith - IF ANY FAITH AT ALL - i wished to follow. My mother told me that if she had baptised me an Episcopalian, what if i grew up and in my own soul wished to be a Presbyterian? Isn't it my right to chose my own faith rather than having the faith of my parents shoved onto me?

If i were you, i wouldn't baptise my children at all. Let your children decide when they are old enough.

However, i respect that you want your child baptised - so, if i were you i would look for a non-catholic Christian church that is far less indoctrinating and demanding.

Best wishes.

[Carryon]

It is intellectually dishonest to raise a child in one faith on the implied supposition it harlmess because he/she can decide on another faith when they are old enough.

[GenSec]

Hi buzzskill -

You may be able to find a priest at another Catholic church who feels differently.

Many years ago, a child in my caseload died in a fire.  The local priest refused to do the funeral because the child's mother did not go to church.  I'm not Catholic myself, and I didn't know how to help the mother.  I called my own minister and he put me in touch with a Catholic priest who he knew from clergy associations, and that priest did the funeral.

In my opinion, a priest who punishes a child because he disapproves of the parents is petty and not deserving of respect.  Of course, since I know little about Catholocism, my opinion is uninformed and may not make sense within the framework of the church.

Grandma

You shouldn't revoke this post grandma - its spot on. I would say its drawback is that it doesn't go far enough.

I mean, you say that if the priest punishes the child because he disapproves of the parents then this is "petty and not deserving of respect". But then you go on to say that, if this is actually not just the view of the priest, but the catholic church as an organisation, then somehow this view no longer applies.

However, i would say it does: hence, whether it be the priest of the catholic church as a whole who punishes a child because he/the church disapproves of the parents, then BOTH deserve the description "petty and not deserving of respect". 

Ah well - children who are shunned by the catholic church due to judgement being passed on their parents, when they grow up into adulthood safely (no thanks to the catholic church), i am sure the church will suddenly want them as member so as to pick their pockets of cash and gain donations. Your child will get to join the catholic church with open arms when he/she is earning a wage as an adult. 

The catholic church is one of the richest organisations in the world while many of its blind followers in the Third World are left to rot in abject poverty and are told to accept their sad lot in life by their "loving" priest. Forshame. I wonder what Jesus Christ would have to say. 

[Grandma]

Red - as always, I respect your views, but in this case I disagree with your position.  My first post was not spot on - in fact, it showed an arrogance on my part to make a judgement on something I knew nothing about.

I have learned a lot about Catholic baptism today.  It is a ceremony, a rite, and a ritual.  In having a child baptised, the parents are making a PROMISE before God and the church community that they will raise their child in the faith.  Baptism is not a two from column one and three from column two proposition.  It is an integral part of Catholic faith and Catholic life.

I wonder if buzzskill, or if you, Red, would dare to ask to join a baseball team with the conditions that you not take batting practice, or even bat for that matter, or play the infield or the outfield.  All that you want to do is slide into second base.  You wouldn't even make it to tryouts with that attitude.

If someone does not believe in the tenets of a religion, they do not have to participate - but if they choose to participate, they have to adhere to the rules.

[Grandma]

And no, I am not calling the Catholic church a game or a sport.  I am making an analogy.

[GenSec]

Red - as always, I respect your views, but in this case I disagree with your position.  My first post was not spot on - in fact, it showed an arrogance on my part to make a judgement on something I knew nothing about.

I have learned a lot about Catholic baptism today.  It is a ceremony, a rite, and a ritual.  In having a child baptised, the parents are making a PROMISE before God and the church community that they will raise their child in the faith.  Baptism is not a two from column one and three from column two proposition.  It is an integral part of Catholic faith and Catholic life.

I wonder if buzzskill, or if you, Red, would dare to ask to join a baseball team with the conditions that you not take batting practice, or even bat for that matter, or play the infield or the outfield.  All that you want to do is slide into second base.  You wouldn't even make it to tryouts with that attitude.

If someone does not believe in the tenets of a religion, they do not have to participate - but if they choose to participate, they have to adhere to the rules.

I wouldn't join the "baseball team" to begin with. No way. Problem solved.

The Inquisition would have to burn me at the stake first, lol. Those were the days when you had to play by the teams rules whether you liked it or not, whether you supported the team or not. Lest we forget.

The problem is that in the Western world, established Christian organisations  like the Catholic Church is dying. Its numbers and influence on society continues to decline. Naturally, this doesn't keep me up at night. However, if the Catholic Church turns folks like Buzz away, isn't it just hammering another nail in its coffin? They need people like Buzz. More than he needs them i would say.

The best course for Buzz to follow would seem to be to go all the way, and cut out all remaining vestiges of Catholicism in his family's life. He's basically at that stage anyway.

[Carryon]

In a sport, it's team effort. Religion is not. Bad analogy GM.

[GenSec]

I suppose grandma has a point.

Take when i was in the Communist Party as an idealistic youth. Would i have tolerated a guy why only accepts a small part of the ideology, of socialism? Definitely not. I was a purist. You accepted it all or nothing. As Lenin said, socialism or bourgeois ideology: there is no 'third way'. You believed and worked for it, contributed to it, or you shouldn't be there.

And a time came when i couldn't agree with it all, i couldn't defend everything that was offically applauded and justified and at the same time be true to my own beliefs and sense of right and wrong. And so i resigned.

Perhaps i needed something from my own personal experience to begin to understand!

[Carryon]

Parents are not given lie detector tests to get kids Baptized. I know plenty of people who had their kids Baptized and a year later left the church for something else or nothing. It's silliness.

[buzzskill]

I know this is kinda polarizing topic. But I truly value all of your opinions.
 After receiving another email from the priest in question in which he told me again that he would not baptize my child and that with no commitment from me and my wife to the church I should go ahead and baptize my baby myself even though it would pretty much be meaningless. My wife and I have decided we will start going back to church although it will be a different church and a different religion (Lutheran). I may have considered going back to the Catholic church if the priest had at least been more understanding. He was extremely cold and unwelcoming so that was that. I very politely thanked him for his time and we are looking forward to starting anew on Sunday! Wish us luck!
Thanks again everyone. Steve     

[GenSec]

I know this is kinda polarizing topic. But I truly value all of your opinions.
 After receiving another email from the priest in question in which he told me again that he would not baptize my child and that with no commitment from me and my wife to the church I should go ahead and baptize my baby myself even though it would pretty much be meaningless. My wife and I have decided we will start going back to church although it will be a different church and a different religion (Lutheran). I may have considered going back to the Catholic church if the priest had at least been more understanding. He was extremely cold and unwelcoming so that was that. I very politely thanked him for his time and we are looking forward to starting anew on Sunday! Wish us luck!
Thanks again everyone. Steve   

Regardless of Catholic orthodoxy or theology, his attitude in my view was less than ideal. Not very understanding or considerate. He could still have declined but in a more polite way. I would even call his attitude demeaning and childishly petty, with that 'baptise your child yourself even though it would be meaningless' remark. I would have asked him to find the Bible verse that backs up his comment.

However, i've found that Christianity often doesn't improve people's manners. Sometimes the very opposite in fact. 

You are not a practicing Catholic, so in his mind you are useless to him = doesn't care about being considerate to you. I wouldn't even have wasted the effort responding to his message, let alone with a polite thank you.

His attitude has backfired spectacularly - not only are you not bothering at all with him now or his church again - you are going to become active in a Lutheran church!

I think if he had baptised your child, you may have become active in the Catholic faith and he may have gained another family in his flock... however, his negative attitude has killed that possibility. But i bet he'll be too dense to even notice his own blunder.

[Carryon]

Like shopping for a widescreen TV.

[buzzskill]

Couldn't have said it better myself GenSec_Red! Only wish I had the guts to!
Carryon, your funny!

[sixpack]

I hope you find a faith that is more congruent with your beliefs.  As I mentioned before,  you wouldn't really want to baptize your child Catholic if you don't believe in the tenets of the faith, would you?  If you stood in a Catholic Church, celebrating the Sacrament and making those promises, you would be sort of lying.  I'm certain you don't want to do that. Conversely you can't really expect the priest to agree to baptizing your child when you openly told him you don't intend or can't make the promises that are part of the Sacrament of Baptism.

AND yes carryon is correct---people ALL OF THE TIME (of any faith) will stand before God and the church community and lie.  They do it out of a sense of obligation or tradition or for some of the really sick ones--because they want a pretty church for a backdrop.  Maybe most them have zero issue with it~~Hey we really put something over that church didn't we  **snickers**~~ As I said in my first post on this thread, our priest baptizes or marries lots of these folks and he knows it.  He is ever hopeful that his "belief" in being open  will encourage them to embrace the faith.  More often than, not, they don't.   However there are those, like you, that would feel badly about doing that. 

[buzzskill]

 Thanks for your input sixpack, I agree with what your saying.
 I am still trying to get over how cold that priest was with me. I truly didn't know the difference between the traditions of a baptism and the requirements of the church. Well he told me! And in the process lost a possible future sheep in his flock.
 Not once in our exchanges did he even ask me to consider coming back to the church, even for my daughters sake. He was though more than happy to scold me like a child... I hope for the Catholic church that he was just having a few bad days and took it out on me..
 Still looking forward to starting anew with the Lutherans this Sunday!
 Thank you everyone for sharing your wisdom.
 Steve