anxiety and philosophy

[LondonBoy]

Didnt einstein argue for the existence of a designer?? something along the lines of 'I want to know gods thoughts'. Again correct me if im wrong.

And as far as religion without a story, the pope was once quoted (so I believe) as talking about heaven and hell as a state of mind type scenario, not a bunch of clouds and flames as depicted. But again people need something to make sense of it all. In this case imagery of these events.

I dont want to get into a religion vs science debate because both sides conclude their way is right. I am on neither side and floating somewhere in the middle trying to absorb both sides and coming to some fascinating conclusions for myself. That is all, so please open your mind and understand we all have a different perception of the world. Maybe god loves u more so he made you more intelligent than me

[Carryon]

Didnt einstein argue for the existence of a designer?? something along the lines of 'I want to know gods thoughts'. Again correct me if im wrong.

And as far as religion without a story, the pope was once quoted (so I believe) as talking about heaven and hell as a state of mind type scenario, not a bunch of clouds and flames as depicted. But again people need something to make sense of it all. In this case imagery of these events.

I dont want to get into a religion vs science debate because both sides conclude their way is right. I am on neither side and floating somewhere in the middle trying to absorb both sides and coming to some fascinating conclusions for myself. That is all, so please open your mind and understand we all have a different perception of the world. Maybe god loves u more so he made you more intelligent than me

He most definitely did not believe in a designer. In fact, he rejected his existence because a god would not be so harsh and cruel to his creations. Einstein's conviction was that physics could explain the elegance of the universe in smple terms. That was his "god". Unfortunately quantum physics, which was not "his thing" blew apart the elegance. He was Newtonian physicist whose physics is valid for most purposes but predated, hence ignored, quantum phsysics and it's supporting math. This knowledge became accepted long after Einstein was in him prime and he knew it up to his death. But being a scientist, he accepted that science and math would yield the answers  -- unlike people of faith like yourself. He was open to changing his mind when proven wrong. Science and math cannot be intergrated into faith and religion without suspending logic. It is the antithesis of religion and faith which require not proof and even reject it, as with the refusal to accept proof of evolution and insist on teaching intelligent design -- creationism under a less provactive name.

[Zaelaura]

Simply because there are things that we have not yet been able to test with the scientific process does NOT make religion or faith a viable solution. What about that do you not understand?? Guess-and-go is the worst possible practice for learning there is. Philosophy - when used in regard to human behaviour - can be coupled with the sciences of psychiatry and psychology to understand how human behaviour is affected by biology, neurology, ecology, etc... but even then philosophy isn't a requirement, only an added perspective. Religion and faith, although very common and a residual tradition of our evolution, are not only not required, but are harmful to our continued pursuit of fact and truth. The practice of being lazy and making crap up instead of perusing the *real* answers through the process of scientific exploration is one of the most hindering and regressive practices we have in this society.

Having faith for an individual's own sanity is totally acceptable. If a person feels better having faith in a God who will one day give them all the answers, more power to them. But when you attempt to couple faith with science, you are throwing rocks into the gears that move us forward.

[GenSec]

Simply because there are things that we have not yet been able to test with the scientific process does NOT make religion or faith a viable solution.

Religion and faith, although very common and a residual tradition of our evolution, are not only not required, but are harmful to our continued pursuit of fact and truth. The practice of being lazy and making crap up instead of perusing the *real* answers through the process of scientific exploration is one of the most hindering and regressive practices we have in this society.

Having faith for an individual's own sanity is totally acceptable. If a person feels better having faith in a God who will one day give them all the answers, more power to them. But when you attempt to couple faith with science, you are throwing rocks into the gears that move us forward.

Really liked reading these parts of the post. Very true. Just read this thread - and enjoyed some of the other past reponses in addition to this one as well.

I think i'll give it a rec.

[LondonBoy]

Hmmm, ok I need to re-read what I read before about einstein. Perhaps only selected paragraphs were pulled.

Just to clear things up I would hardly consider myself a man of religion. Faith on the other hand does not need to be religion based. Im accepting every premise you are putting forward, but I still do not think science explains everything in this universe. Its not like im sayin u guys are talking garbage and im preaching my faith to you. Im just searching for my own answers as is everybody else. For me, science does not offer all the answers, it fails to explain alot of things. So far religion fails in these areas too. The only way i can make educated decisions it to fill myself with all the information and come to my own conclusions. You are misinterpreting alot of what I am saying, or I am not saying it clearly enough. Im not arguing for religion against science! Im arguing that science is not the universal truth it is sometimes perceived to be. Its human understandings best attempt at explaining the world around us, but in a universe like this anythings possible I suppose.

Faith does help an individual therefore it has a very real effect on the universe around us. It can turn our energy into positive energy that can produce change in our lives and surroundings. This I believe is a human power to change our 'aura' and religion for some people is simply the placebo they use to help themselves. This is just my opinion. I however am not one of these people. For now i remain in the undecided category!

Thankyou for an eye opening conversation but this is taking up alot of my energy now and im here to try and calm myself down, pondering philosophies and universal theories is not the best source of relief. I will tackle my anxiety and philosophical angst at different intervals in the dimensions of space time and any other dimensions we lack the insight to discover.

Peace

[Zaelaura]

I think you still have a little confusion over what science is, tho...
Science isn't something that can get things 'right or wrong'. Science is the process of testing information - our conclusions can be right or wrong... our data can be complete or incomplete.... but science, like math, cannot be 'wrong'..... the only things that lead us to incomplete or incorrect answers are relying on data that is incomplete or incorrect....

Faith is to have belief in something that cannot be observed... that's the definition of faith.... to have faith in anything, there has to be a concept or idea you have faith in.... faith, in some cases, can lead to scientific discovery if it is used to drive the scientific process. But to claim that you can have faith in something that cannot ever be scientifically tested is to believe in something that cannot be real.

Something either exists, or does not exist. Something can be caused, or cannot be caused. We don't fully understand the human brain yet, but we can run tests on the human brain. We don't fully understand energy, but we can manipulate energy. You can have faith in something that hasn't been discovered yet - but unless you use the scientific method to pursue data about that something, that faith is a complete waste of time and energy. If you do utilize science to pursue it and you come up 100% empty handed, then there is no point in believing it. You can continue to pursue, but just believing in something that you have no observation, data, law, theory to support.... just makes no sense at all....

[tinam7]

If the quest here is to calm anxiety, I'd recommend keeping an open, interested mind with regard to science and philosophy, but treading cautiously with faith. Now that is just my own experience with no intent of convincing anyone of anything.

I've been calm and relaxed and generally happy since I've taken the path (took a long time) of realizing no-one has any idea of my existence or cares about my existence, except people I know, of course. Keeping a low profile is pleasantly reassuring.

P.S. Want to add that meeting some like minded people here has meant much to me. Thank you; thank you.

[Carryon]

Equating science and faith takes tortured logic; it can only start with a bias against science and reason.

[LondonBoy]

Im not a scientist, my brain is not purely logical like that of a scientist. I do believe there are things, forces if u like,at work in our universe that science cannot explain. Maybe one day science will provide an answer. When i say forces im not talking about a floating man on a cloud, im just leaving my brain open to the possibility that there are unexplainable factors. I see it as hope and optimism. Joke is i dont particularly have faith in 'something' i just have faith there are things we cannot perceive yet. Thats all. I know exactly what science is, but science is not the be all and end all of the universe as far as Im concerned. I applaud it and im glad there are people such as yourselves in the world to help me make sense of things.

Maybe I need to word my sentences better as u seem to think im attacking science which I am not, so stop responding to me like im a religious nut here preaching something through blind thinking. Im just saying in a universe where there is so much we dont know, to think that science has all the answers is ridiculous. Maybe one day it will but certainly this day there are many an unexplained phenomena, but i dont know, maybe its better with a little mystery. It gives us a chance to dream.

Peace to all nihilists and religious followers alike

[Carryon]

LB:

Everyone who is logical is not a scientist. Study philosophy.

That something is not known or appears unknowable does not infer an unknown force or power. Study philosophy and science.

That church ruled that way in suppressing scientific thought in the dark ages, when it insisted that the earth was the center of the universe and flat, among shibboleths at the time. Study history.

Conclusion: You gave away your bias when you introduced "intelligent design". You reject conclusions that  refute the existence of a supernatural god and tolerate those that do not.  A convenient ideology, but not remotely close to reason.

Diagnosis: You are conflicted "creationist".

Prognosis: Not good. Increasing frustration accepting the wave of secularism sweeping industrialized countries.

Remedy: Find a time machine to take you back to the 12th century. Whoops; that will take science which can't back to place where science did not exist. Instead, grow a beard and move to a place in the dark ages that wants the rest of the world for company, like Waziritstan. But keep a sharp eye out of for missile carrying drones and Seal Team 6.   

[Zaelaura]

Of COURSE there are things in the realm of existence that we, as a species, have not been able to identify or explain yet. That is common knowledge and accepted by EVERYONE with half a brain. But the concept that there are things that we cannot yet explain is NOT faith.... it is a logical conclusion. You can only have faith if you are concluding that you have some concept of what those things are. i.e., simply knowing that things exist that you can't explain is being open minded and logical, not having faith - but concluding that those things are likely intelligent forces would be faith - and that type of conclusion is a bad conclusion because it is making an assessment of things that you don't have any data to assess for.

There is a HUGE difference between being intelligent enough to admit that no one has all of the answers and being deluded enough to think that faith is better than rationality when supplementing for the lack of data.

[Carryon]

Secularization formula:

F = K - I, where F is faith, K is useful knowledge and I =  K - U(t). U is unknown useful knowledge, decreasing exponentially with time (t). Q.E.D Faith disappears with time and knowledge.   

[LondonBoy]

When did i ever say faith is better than rational thinking? My rational thinking has led me to a point that I can believe there are other things at work in the universe.

I am not rejecting scientific conclusions and im not arguing for intelligent design. I am undecided totally! We have no way of knowing so all any of us can do is speculate of which science holds the high ground being it based in a world of factual observation. I am just saying that some things are "possibly" beyond human perception so at this point in time science does not answer everything (not that religion does too).

Can you not accept that I may not think the same way as you? I never rejected the theory of evolution, i just said science can still not map out the evolutionary chain of man (hence the rise of the alien DNA theory and other things - which are not my opinion either before u form an attack at me based on this).

Im sorry for sharing my opinion, maybe these things just get me through my day, who knows, u can judge me behind your closed doors if u want to.

What is energy? that is the key for me, thats where all questions seem to point to. Everything is energy and energy is everything right so at the moment this is as far as Ive got.

For the record, I am not religous. Out of all i have read some the buddhist philosophies make the most sense, but again im just at the beginning of a learning curve and I will find my own path. I accept your views and they go into my head with the other thoughts and I will come to my own conclusions based on my own life experiences. Dont rubbish my ideas and attack me though for having an opinion when Im not preaching anything im saying as fact, Im just trying to come to my OWN conclusions

[Zaelaura]

The only objection I was left with were your choice of words. I don't, personally, have any laid out perspective of what you do or do not believe.

I just want to encourage you to be more cautious about saying that you have 'faith' unless you have faith in an actual conclusion/idea.... if the extent of your 'faith' is that humanity doesn't know everything, then you don't have faith. You have common sense. The term faith can only be applied to actual ideas... not to an agnostic perspective... and to encourage you not to treat the concept of 'science' as though it is some how equivocally as unreliable as religion. Both of these misuses of terminology spread ignorance about the definitions of these words and makes for confusing debates and discussions.

[LondonBoy]

I have faith in something, just not sure what it is yet. Maybe its science!

[Zaelaura]

>_<
That's not the way it works.
What is it that you have faith in??
In order to have faith, it must be in SOMETHING.
A god, a process, a concept, a method, a person, a system, etc.
You cannot have faith in nothingness. It is an impossibility.
Having faith is to believe something without evidence.
So....
You can have faith that the world will one day be taken over by aliens.
You can have faith that people become ghosts when they die.
You can have faith that an intelligent being created the universe.
You can have faith that when you wash your hands eight times your cousin will be saved from fatal doom of being smashed by a bus.
You can have faith that you are the reborn entity of JFK.
You cannot have faith that you will one day learn more than you know today, because that isn't something lacking evidence - it is common sense and observed that individuals and society, alike, progress and gain new information.

[LondonBoy]

It was just a joke, I suppose its stupid to say 'relax' on an anxiety forum

[Carryon]

LB:

Okay, giving you the benefit of doubt that you are not a creationist cypher, what is your point? What is the problem with science not having all the answers? So what? There's a difference between no information and misinformation.

Moreover, there can be enough valid information to "infer" a fact, and that is why evolution is valid even though they cannot find "every link in the chain".
 

[LondonBoy]

There is not a point, im not trying to convince anyone I was just sharing my thoughts. Evolution is valid but maybe, like i said, the universe is exciting with a bit of mystery. I really dont have the energy to carry on with this debate, its really not helping my anxiety at the moment. Thankyou for taking the time to share and educate me on the facts of science

[LondonBoy]

[jethro]

Psydorian,
Hope you've made some progress in resolving your problem.
I can't say I understand EXACTLY what your talking about, but I'd just like to offer a few thoughts.
I generally take a more philosophic/existential/spiritual perspective on my own mental/emotional problems as opposed to a "clinical/scientific" one.  Sure, I investigate certain theories and techniques in psychology, but I find that what is considered "disordered" by official pyschology is problematical.  It's not clearly objective and I'm generally not prepared to accept its judgments of what is "normal", "healthy", or "balanced".  For example, I suppose Van Gogt was tortured and confused, but if he'd successfully undergone therapy, would we have the stunning paintings he left for us?  Apply the same argument to any artist of intensity.  Maybe true creativity and originality has its price?
But I guess you've got to explore your options.  I wouldn't discourage you from seeing a pyschiatrist/psychologist.  Maybe he/she'd work for you.  Do what you have to do.  Whatever your choice, more power to you.
I've only read a little about it, but main method of chipping away at my own inner troubles would be CBT.  The other, also very important, is mindfulness.  Mind you, I have a long way to go, and I see a steep climb ahead.
Language can clarify and it can confuse. Lay it aside now and then and give your brain a rest.
Please let us know how you're doing some time.
Jethro

[spitfireatme]

I think that anxiety and depression and philosophy should go hand in hand and if you can deal with them, that's a beneficial thing. Like they say, "no pain, no gain" - I think that's true to some extent. It's challenging to "think outside the box" and challenge the status quo of thinking. But also, there is vain philosophy which St. Paul talks about. Don't know if you're Christian, I am, I would suggest praying for God's help if you are. I had existential crises like it sounds like you're describing. I had depressive pains which I think were the seeds of better intellect. We have this weird idea today that all learning is supposed to be fun and uplifting - sometimes, it can be downright depressing and challenging though, no? Disturbing and anxiety-producing! We were keener about this in the past, look back a few decades at how intellectuals would write, psychologists. Today all anxiety and depression are "diseased" rather than being normal reactions to a sick society! Now there can be overwhelming depression and anxiety and some of it can be misplaced and should be "treated", but I just wanted to mention that some of it is vital suffering that produces good fruit! If you're smart and you realize the kinds of cruelty and stupidity that others do, it can be pretty depressing. Or if you realize the kinds of lies that people believe since you're a critical thinker and challenge them, that can be a bit unsettling, too. Basically though network and hang in there, work on self-development and each disturbing thought. Heal the useless and destructive feelings and probe the beneficial pains.

God bless you and good luck!