Can anyone help/advise me on this deeply spiritual text?

[GenSec]

Hi,

I decided to broaden my mental horizons today.... and i was wondering if anyone could help me do that. 

I am not religious, but i have read the Bible and taken classes on it. However, yesterday i realised that i have never read the Koran.

You hear so much about Islam as a faith today, but i realised - before you give an opinion on something, you should always open your mind and study it in full first. Giving opinions on something you have never taken the time or consideration to study is wrong (this is true of all faiths/ideologies, etc).

So, i was wondering if anyone has read the Koran before? Also, i know that Muslims believe the word of the Prophet Muhammed can only be understood in his original word, untranslated Arabic - but seems as i cannot speak or read Arabic, does anyone know any English language version of the Holy text that is as accurate and acceptable as can be in English?

I have asked someone to go out to our bookshop and have a look at the copies they have there in English..... i did get permission to visit i Mosque once when i was younger, so really i am kinda looking forward to opening my mind and reading (and so properly understanding) something that is a positive way of belief for Millions in the world. 

Kind thanks.

[GenSec]

I have read and finished the Koran…. So I would like to finish off this thread with my observations.

The Koran was not as I expected. It is not some alien religious text worlds apart from Christianity and Judaism. In fact, throughout its 436 pages, it constantly reaffirms the truth and word contained in the Jewish Torah (or the Bible’s Old Testament) and actually summarises many of the stories from the Old Testament. Time and again it tells the stories of Abraham, Noah and Moses - Pharoah and his Egyptian chariots, Naoh and his Ark. The Koran constantly reaffirms that it is to be seen as an addition to the Torah. In a sense then, we Westerners should imagine the Old Testament and the Koran attached to it rather than the New Testament.

In a very strong sense, Christianity and Islam are brothers… the constantly talk of their father, Judaism. Although the Prophet Muhammed is spoken of a lot in the Koran (obviously, it was him who received it from the Angel Gabriel) the next most spoken of human is Abraham, who is celebrated as a great man and prophet.

The Koran specifies how to live your life as a good Muslim and how to deal with non believers. Christians and Jews are called “the People of the Book” (ie the Old Testament) and it is specified that they should be treated fairly, respectfully and decently. However, if they wrong you, you are right to fight them and attack them if they attack you.
The Koran is not like the Bible. It does not say things like “love thy neighbour” or “love thy enemies”. The Koran teaches that “No man shall bear another’s burden”. This means that you are not responsible for the sins and choices of others. As Allah constantly tells Muhammed about the sinners, “You are not their keeper”. Simply inform them of Gods wishes, and if they ignore your warning, leave them alone. “Let them play” the Koran says. Because they will in end “they will answer to God alone on the day of Judgement.” People are responsible for their own sins. A Muslim is not obligated to love his enemies, love unbelievers, or feel pity or sympathy for them. We have an individual personal relationship with God and we all answer to him for our choices in life. So, basically… let sinners and unbelievers stay as they are. You owe them nothing.

The Koran’s story of Jesus is very interesting. In the Koran, Jesus is just a man. He is not the son of God and he did not have powers. He was a simple man who Allah charged to do his bidding, uniting the world under one God, Allah. Jesus was a good man and an inspiration and example. He was not born in a stable either and Joseph does not exist in the Koran version of his birth - Mary was a Virgin who had no husband, and she left her people to give birth to Jesus alone in the desert under a palm tree.

Neither was Jesus crucified, and he did not rise from the dead - God called him up to heaven, and he left Earth. He will return on the Day of Resurrection.

The Koran is divided into 25 chapter, or ‘Surahs’. The Koran is very repetitive and it repeats whole paragraphs again and again. But remember - in the 7th century when the Koran was first revealed to Muhammed, it was not a written piece. It was committed to memory by professional reciters. In fact, the Koran means “The Recital”. It was not written down in book form until many years later after its revelation. It also means that, after me reading it just once, I can remember and recite whole sentences of script from it lol!
The Koran has the voices of 3 characters in it - Allah (who is the main speaker, speaking directly to Muhammed and other readers), Muhammed himself, and the Angel Gabriel who came to Muhammed and told him he was to be a Prophet of God. These 3 are the only speakers in the whole work. As such, you will notice that, unlike the Bible (written by many men), the Koran has very few, if any, contradictions. I picked up no contradictions in the Koran, either of rules or beliefs.

Overall, I found the Koran an interesting read. I am an athiest. I do not support any religion in particular, although I have also read the Bible. When I read the Koran, I did not see in front of me a book that supports hatred, terrorism, etc. I just seen a religious text very similar to the Old Testament. Yes women in the Koran are treated as subject to the will of men (and it says openly that women are inferior to men) but so what? So does the Torah and the Bible! Both are products of their age, many centuries ago, when women were commonly viewed as inferior to men. I am afraid if you condemn the Koran as misogynist, you must also condemn the Torah and Bible.
(PS the Koran teaches why Jewish believers are in "error" and who Christians are in "error", it does not treat them as enemies, but as misguided brothers who worship the same Merciful, Compassionate and Benevolent God.)

Overall then, I would recommend anyone interested in Faith to read this work and open their mind. Never condemn something you have never yourself come to understand fully first.

(And no, I have not been tempted to convert, haha!) 

Kind thanks for reading!

[Carryon]

God Is Not One
The Eight Rival religions that Run the World—and Why Their Differences Matter
by Stephen Prothero 2010

[GenSec]

Hi,

I have checked out this title on the HarperCollins book website, carryon.

It looks very interesting, the idea that religions, like political ideologies, are not all the same thing just taking different paths to the same conclusion. They have very differing ends and interpretations. To be fair, i was only saying here what the Koran says, not my own personal views on religion. As you are well aware, i am an athiest and i still have alot of issues regarding religious belief in general.

I am not an expert on religion, i have only began reading about it relatively recently. This book is an interesting suggestion, thank you.

I am now reading 'The Analects' by Confucious. 

So far, Confucianism is my favourite..... although strictly speaking, it does not believe in any God so it is not a religion, in the Abrahamic sense. It is more of a philosophy.

I am also reading 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins..... thats very interesting in all of this too, an athiest perspective on God.

Kind thanks.

[Carryon]

God Is Not One
The Eight Rival religions that Run the World—and Why Their Differences Matter
by Stephen Prothero 2010

Gets dense on Confuscism and Hinduism, and why not: they are very old with rich histories. He considers them two of the major religions because about half the world follows them and they predate all the others and even though Confuscism has no god Hinduism has a planopy of gods for this and that. A theology professor, the author discusses atheism because it is growing in rapidly in Europe especially and opines that some strains of atheism have the characteristics of religion. Not a page turner, but I enjoyed it because I never studied the Eastern religions in the religion course I took in college. 

[GenSec]

Yeah you are totally right carryon, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Hinduism - all are so rich in history, fascinating to read about, and predate Christ by centuries and even in Hinduisms case, thousands of years.

What gets my attention is that all these Eastern faiths (must include Japanese Shintoism here too) have coexisted and lived in friendship with each other for centuries, sometimes even (if you watch Japanese tv you can see this) sharing the same religious grounds and temples! Could you imagine the Abrahamic faiths doing that?

I have never really studied religion, at uni i studied ideologies. But i wish to broaden my knowledge and horizons and gain more understanding of other belief systems.
I did think about looking at Hinduism, but it looked quite complicated to understand! So after Confucianism i am going to take a look at Buddhism (my father converted to Buddhism before he married his present wife who is also a Buddhist, lol). Buddhism looks really interesting plus, i found a good priced academic book which has a load of translations of old Buddhist texts which were compiled by scholars. So thats my next read!

As you know already, athiest belief systems like Marxism can be VERY semi-religious.... just look at how Marx, Engels and Lenin - along with their volumes of written texts - were venerated in the old Soviet Union and quoted like scripture.....

Best, thanks again.

[Carryon]

I keep the book on my Nook (e-reader) for a quick reference. Your mention of Buddhism prompts me to look at that chapter again because Buddhism focuses so much on living in the moment. No surprise, I enjoy Yoga. To your point on what meets the definition of a religion, I think he wondered in passing if some of the Eastern offshorts of  are so "free form" that they do not meet the (his) definition. In his view, doctrine has to reach an undefined but minimal threshold. No surprise the absence of doctrine is the appeal of Buddhism and it's derivatives to so many in the west. All of the eastern religions are atheistic by Judao-Chirstian standards, and Hindusim pagan. Which is "cool".

[tinam7]

Thank you, Red, for this fine review of the Koran of which I knew nothing. I was introduced to the Old Testament to cause only stress even when I was quite young. Maybe the New Testament is better. Mostly, though, they all scare me half to death. I was even afraid to come to these discussions. I am agnostic, at best, but typically stand alone.

Nice to know I am not completely alone.

[Carryon]

Read that them as historical fiction if not pure fiction.

[GenSec]

Hi tinam7 

I just wanted to show others that the Koran is not some alien book totally beyond Western understanding. Today in our media i see the Koran and its believers being painted as somehow alien to Western traditions and 'the other' to us. I did not see that when i read it.

The problem today is that what grabs our attention the most are the extremists. However, extremism in any religion leads to the same behaviour. Extremist Christians are like fellow extremist Muslims in that they condemn non-believers to Hell's fury. Extremist Christians in the middle ages burned non-believers at the stake. They also sought to undermine governments which did not subscribe to their ridiculous views and interpretations.

Extremism in any religion is bad, and exists in all of them. Its just that recently these extremists bring Islam to our attention and the others fade from our field of view for the moment, thats all. 

I'm certainly never going to convert to Islam, but for me its no worse than its fellow Abrahamic faiths Judaism and Christianity!

[tinam7]

Thank you both. Yes, the Koran fits right in. And, yes, I can read it like fiction but can think of better fiction, far less dangerous.

Feels good to be free and no pretensions.

[Pokey]

I've never read the Koran, but I've heard that overall it's very wise,
but there are some things in there that are questionable - we've all
heard the 'kill all infidels' quote for example, and I have no doubt
that that's a passage in the Koran though I haven't referenced it
for myself.

Anyway, I heard the Muhammed (the guy who wrote the Koran) fell
from grace and developed epilepsy and became mentally ill, and started
to distort his own teachings to make them violent and dangerous.

Something, somewhere in the Koran is either dangerous or is grossly
distorted. Because no matter what's been said by countless Muslims,
Islam does not look like a peaceful religion to me. It wasn't the Hindus,
the Christians or the Buddhists that blew up the twin towers. (I can't
believe I'm paraphrasing Donald Trump, but the guy makes a damn
good point).

[Carryon]

First, Muhammad did more for Islam than Jesus did for
Christianity. Jesus was a great religious teacher, but he left It to
Paul to establish Christianity and spread
Jesus's teachings. Ir Jesus wrote anything, nothing of His writing
survives, while Paul is credited as the author of nearly halr or the
New Testament's books. In purely religious terms, Muhammad did
the work of Jesus and Paul combined. He was both a charismatic
and a bureaucratic leader. He founded Islam and, though Muslims
insist he did not write the Quran, he was the prophet through whom
this revelation came into the world. Today Muslims look to
Muhammad as a model for their own lives. The Hadith. a scriptural
collection or his sayings and actions second In authority only to the
Quran, has long provided a basis for Islamic law.

[Pokey]

Well, be that as it may, if he had some psychological breakdown
and fell from Grace and became a sick, mentally unstable man, it
stands to reason that his past works, as great as they may have
been, were distorted by himself.

Even Hitler started out as one of the good guys.

[GenSec]

I've never read the Koran, but I've heard that overall it's very wise,
but there are some things in there that are questionable - we've all
heard the 'kill all infidels' quote for example, and I have no doubt
that that's a passage in the Koran though I haven't referenced it
for myself.

Anyway, I heard the Muhammed (the guy who wrote the Koran) fell
from grace and developed epilepsy and became mentally ill, and started
to distort his own teachings to make them violent and dangerous.

Something, somewhere in the Koran is either dangerous or is grossly
distorted. Because no matter what's been said by countless Muslims,
Islam does not look like a peaceful religion to me. It wasn't the Hindus,
the Christians or the Buddhists that blew up the twin towers. (I can't
believe I'm paraphrasing Donald Trump, but the guy makes a damn
good point).

The Koran is no worse than the Jewish Torah, or Old Testament.

Yes the Koran says to kill infidels - but only if they attack you first. The Torah is full of stories of ethnic genocide of non-Jewish tribes, and bloodlust. The Torah does not reveal to me a peaceful religion either. 

Plenty of evil acts have been committed in the name of Christianity over the centuries - the difference is that we in the West prefer to gloss over those crimes and evil acts. Today, we are "civilised".

[GenSec]

Even Hitler started out as one of the good guys.

When was this then?

[Carryon]

The probablem is more so with the gullability of people to accept the Koran (or the bible) based upon fear from theocrats in churches etc. and to conform. Words don't act; people act on them. Islam, the newest member in Juedo-Christian line, all derived from the covenant between and the Jews and god (alleged in the old testament) through Abraham and Moses, shares the same distrust of anyone who is not part of the convenant by birth and other rituals. The other major religions have nothing comparable to that divine xeonophobia.

[GenSec]

The probablem is more so with the gullability of people to accept the Koran (or the bible) based upon fear from theocrats in churches etc. and to conform. Words don't act; people act on them. Islam, the newest member in Juedo-Christian line, all derived from the covenant between and the Jews and god (alleged in the old testament) through Abraham and Moses, shares the same distrust of anyone who is not part of the convenant by birth and other rituals. The other major religions have nothing comparable to that divine xeonophobia.

Carryon is right - anyway i am not saying Islam is BETTER than Christianity and Judaism.... i am merely saying it is not any WORSE.

[Pokey]

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."

- Gandhi

I think the Holy books are great, it's the people who read them and distort them
that are the problem. 

But Islam, because it was distorted by Muhammed himself, it's a bit different.

I mean, it depends on whether you believe that Muhammed fell from Grace or
not.

[Pokey]

Even Hitler started out as one of the good guys.

When was this then?


The very beginning of his career. My husband is a real WW2 buff, and I was
really interested in Hitler a few years back. Before he wrote Mein Kampf (a
terrible joke of a book) and before the power went to his head and he
started to believe he was God 

[GenSec]

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."

- Gandhi

I think the Holy books are great, it's the people who read them and distort them
that are the problem. 

But Islam, because it was distorted by Muhammed himself, it's a bit different.

I mean, it depends on whether you believe that Muhammed fell from Grace or
not.

I would argue all of the 3 Abrahamic faiths are distorted versions of reality, it doesn't really matter whether that distortion happened through the founder or through the followers in later years.

Islam may depend on whether Muhammed fell from grace or not (which i am not arguing with you over  ) just like Christianity depends on whether Jesus was really the son of a god or not. Both Islam and Christianity to myself are equally not the truth.

[GenSec]

The very beginning of his career. My husband is a real WW2 buff, and I was
really interested in Hitler a few years back. Before he wrote Mein Kampf (a
terrible joke of a book) and before the power went to his head and he
started to believe he was God 

I also know a bit about Hitler, because i studied European History at University.

Hitler wrote Mein Kampf when he was still a relative nobody. He had no power when he wrote that book. He was involved in a small, fringe right wing organisation at the time. That was it. They didn't even have a single seat in the Reichstag.

At the very beginning of his career, Hitler was still a man of far-right persuasions.... when was he ever a good man? What did he say or do that was ever good? 

[Pokey]

Both Islam and Christianity to myself are equally not the truth.

What do you think the truth is? I hope this doesn't sound interrogating, I'd
just like to hear your perspective.

[GenSec]

Both Islam and Christianity to myself are equally not the truth.

What do you think the truth is? I hope this doesn't sound interrogating, I'd
just like to hear your perspective.

No no you aren't interrogating!  No worries - i am happy to share my beliefs. In fact, i think you are the first person to just ask me straight out.... i respect people just being direct. 

I am a Marxist. A former Communist if you wish to know abit about my past.

[Pokey]

Oh! There are a lot more Marxists around than I would have thought. An old
friend of mine is a Marxist. We used to spend hours debating philosophy and
religion, but our views differ so entirely we could never reach an conclusion
other than

ME: I am right, you are wrong
HER: I am right, you are wrong

 

It's an interesting philosophy though, for sure.

What about it is appealing to you?

For my friend, it's the idea of re-distribution of wealth.