Anyone offer thougths on OCD meds that are not SSRI's??

[kimhix]

My son Zack, 11, can not take SSRI meds they make him worse . But his OCD is what provokes his horrible, violent, combative rages. Anyone have any ideas of a differnt line of meds that have worked for  you or your child??

[ocdengineer]

Definitely get him off the SSRI's.  They are very dangerous for young children.  i would suggest cognitive behavioral therapy and meditation as a solution with some good one on one counceling.  I have OCD and when I was in 2nd grade it all started.  It abruptly ended when I was in 4th grade and I never thought about it again until I was in my early twenties and then it all started again.  I would suggest you let your child get through the first part on his/her own and when he/she is in their twenties consider medication.  The childs brain is developing through the late teens, so you want to be careful what kind of drugs you tthrow at this dissorder until the brain is stabalized around the early twenties.  If you decide to stop the meds, do it gradually.  They say the meds are safe to just stop,b ut in my experience there are withdrawl effects.

I hope your son feels better,
OE

[Alprazolam]

I have been following your posts about your son and his condition.


The first thing I have to offer is:


A.  Take him to see a licensed Psychologist/Psychiatrist combo.

B. Meds are not going to be as important as training the brain to remap the problem and function "correctly."

Anyway, for now if your looking for some alternative medicine I can suggest "5-HTP". Its an OTC amino acid that is a direct precursor to seratonin which may release some of his depression, which in turn will affect his anxiety levels, which can also all sometimes help lessen his obssesions and compulsions.

However, this will not fix the problem. Not at all.


Seeing a doctor and beginning to work on retraining the brain with a technique like "CBT" Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is going to be your sons only savior, and during that process your doctor can perscribe an array of different meds (I.E. Xanax-Alprazolam or Valium for anti-anxiety which can ease the tantrums, obsessions, and anxiety immensely. But these medications are perscription only -Did I mention See a doc :)- and can be addictive.


Good luck.

[ocdengineer]

Benzodiazepenes are not addictive.  They are dependency forming which is completely different animal.  Addiction means that you require more and more of a substance to get the required effects and you will do horrible things to get the drug.  Neither of which a Benzo will cause.  Many fear these types of drugs because the pharmaceutical companies that sell antidepressants want doctors to worry about the meds that they are prescribing even though time and time again Benzos are the #1 best cure for anxiety disorders.  There is no medical documentation that Benzos are addictive and definitely no medical docmentation that they are any more damaging than antidepressants in the short or long term.  There is however lots of medical documentation on the many side effects that antidepressants cause and how little the benzos cause.  Benzos have been around since the middle of the last century so there is a wealth of knowledge on them and there is not on many of the new antidepressants such as Lexapro etc.  This really bothers me because I went for almost a decade trying almost every antidepressant known to man only to find that it did nothing or made my symptoms worse.  Finally I went to a specialist in anxiety disorders and he prescribed Xanax which eliminated the majority of my anxiety in 15 minutes.  I have been taking it for 8 months and haven't changed doseage in 5-6 of those months.  2 mg per day and I have a prescription for 3.  when capitalism starts interfering with peoples health I tend to get a little upset.  I apologize ahead of time if my statements offend anyone.

Later,
OE

[Alprazolam]

Sure, we could get into the technical definition of physical "addiction"

I know all about medicinal/recreational drugs- Its part of my passion


But you should shift your focus to my main reason for stating that, A. A doc needs to prescribe it B. They need to be dealt with carefully.

Thats why you dont just get bottles of Alprazolam thrown at you to take as you please - And if you dont think they are addicting(Mentally)(Re-precussion wise), talk to the people who cant come off them or the ones with serious withdrawel symptoms.



(BTW your definition of addiction "you require more and more of a substance to get the required effects and you will do horrible things to get the drug" is way off base, mentally or physically. Either way, they are plenty of people who require more Alprazolam and benzos of the sort, and who will do abnormal things to get them. Everyones different, not everyone gets addicted to Opiates or Nicotine, but that doesnt mean they arent addicting - Physically or Mentally.


(For something to qualify as physically addicting it - 1. Needs to be used repeatedly to counter act its affect so the user can get over the withdrawel I.E. Someone does a line of coke, comes down 30 minutes later and needs to do another line to feel normal again. 2. Make the body require it for normal funcition in some way I.E. Neurons in the brain requiring it to signal properly, etc.)

Alprazolam and other benzos fit part of that. If someone uses enough benzos for an extended period of time, the adrenaline and dopamine receptors in the brain will not longer function properly without it and they will go into severe physical distress.

As for mental addiction and wanting more- Anything can be addicting and abused. Food for some people is addicting and damaging to health. Alprazolam and Valium cause alot of people to "want more" because its such a powerful break from anxiety and in turn there tolerance raises and those two things combined are dangerous.


Sorry about the seeming rant, but I wanted to clear up a few things because I felt like you were coming off as if A. Anyone should have Benzos like xanax and take it how they want because its "not damaging" and B. You werent focusing on the true reason for this whole topic. Im not against Alprazolam or anxyiolitics in any way, but there are reasons they are tough to get prescribed.

[Alprazolam]

Also maybe I missed it Kim but has your doctor ever suggested any anti-psychotics (Sounds scary but it really isnt) Maybe he could get something that could lower his dopamine levels which would in turn really level him out emotionally. The only down side to that is lowering dopamine levels can cause Parkinsons disease over time....

Its a dangerous subject that only you and your doctor should deal with, but eveyrthings a potential option.

[ocdengineer]

Al,

Benzos should be dealt with carefully!  I totally agree.  A doctor should prescribe them and then monitor a patients progress carefully over time as with any psychotropic medication.  Yes, people do have withdrawl from Benzo's, again like many other psychotropic medications.  Point is, Benzos are given a bad rap by the pharmaceutical industry, not due to its side effects or its withdrawl symptoms.  Most withdrawl symptoms can be avoided simply by weaning yourself off the medication over time.  Xanax can be bought for pennies a pill and antidepressants are much more expensive.  This is why benzos are less likely to be prescribed. 

Bottom line Benzos and antidepressants are not addictive.  Whether you choose to believe this or not, there is no medical literature or study out there proving that Benzos are "addictive".  Not a single one.  Coke and heroin are addictive, benzos are not.

From Websters on-line see #2:

Main Entry: ad·dic·tion
Pronunciation: &-'dik-sh&n, a-
Function: noun
1 : the quality or state of being addicted <addiction to reading>
2 : compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance (as heroin, nicotine, or alcohol) characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal; broadly : persistent compulsive use of a substance known by the user to be harmful

Benzos do neither of the things highlighted above.  Addiction is word that is thrown around without regard to its real definition.  Insulin is dependency forming as well and not addictive.  Nobody complains about insulin being addictive, but the withdrawl from insulin can lead to death.

This is a battle that has gone on for many years and we won't settle it here, but trust me, anxiety disorders are a life long illness and should be treated as such.  You are young and have a lot of time to think about there types of questions and I am glad you are actively doing it! 

I kicked OCD when I was twenty for almost 5 years with no meds, but it came back.  It always does.  Anxiety disorders have higher than a 90% relapse rate and OCD is worse than average!  Once real stress like a family, kids, stressful job etc. hit, the anxiety disorder will rear its ugly head again.  That is how it works.  I also had an OCD event when I was in the second grade that I beat by the 4th grade, so there is no doubt that it is doable in the short term, but it is a genetic disease.

This lends itself to long term life changes as well as possibly medication depending on the severity.  The best things one can do with an anxiety disorder is:

Exercise
Eat well
Avoid recreational drugs of all kinds including alcohol, nicotine, and caffeine!
Meditation and Mindfulness are extremely helpful see www.buddhanet.net for all kinds of great reading
CBT is also really beneficial
And medication if required

Kim,

I agree with Al on most everything else he said minus the antipsychotics.  I took a trip down that road and it wasn't a place I ever want to be again.  I think the less drugs the better in Zack's case, but the first thing to do is find a specialist in anxiety and mood disorders like Al said!  Never trust the first mechanic! 

Also, has Zack been checked for Autism?  Honestly, a lot of his symptoms don't sound like anxiety to me.  I am not a doctor, but his obsessive habits and difficulty with mood swings could be a sign of Autism?  If you haven't looked into it already, maybe it is worthwhile doing.  I would think your anxiety disorder specialist that you are going to find would be able to help you distinguish this though, so find a good doctor first.

Anyway, you guys take care,
OE

[Alprazolam]

I understand where you are going with that-

And as you can see we are on the same side, hence my name :)

Anxyiolitics when used properly, are great medications and DO get a bad wrap from the pharmacutical industry.


However, like you mentioned they can cause withdrawel, even if you taper off. Someone people even experience immediate withdrawel after its 3-4hours half life each time they take it.

Yes, technically it is not physically addicting. But by that technical definition, neither is LSD.

Neither is food right? Or marijuana?

Anyone can be addicted to anything, mentally. People dont get addicted to "weed" because they physically need it, but because they desire the affects and mentally need more. This is often times just and dangerous and strong.


Point being, Alprazolam or many other fast acting benzos are affective treatments, and safe under supervision. But everything has a flip side- I know from personal use the "escape" from the anxiety is a very strong pull, and it is easy to see why docs specifically will NOT prescribe it to someone who they feel will have a chemicle dependancy.

My main point is that you should simply see a doctor under his/her supervision no matter what the case :)


As for the anti-psychotic(s)

Yes, it can be a dangerous rode, and you may not agree due to personal experience but for some people its changed lives. But I know where your coming from, which is why I state its something that should be taken up with the doc and the doc only.


And your case for autism sparks interest, but at the same time I know Kim has had her child under professional supervision for some time now and I believe they have it pin pointed.


I think we all in all stand in the both place.


Kim if you need any more input, you know how to get ahold of me! Or anyone else that has valuable info to offer just like  ocdengineer.


Everyone is here to offer help!


*One thing I do disagree somehwhat on is the fact that you stated anxiety disorders are lifelong for everyone. My backing as to why:

A. I have heard many cases of OCD specifically being kicked in general all together. Ive experienced life without it for 10+years, and only brought it back by my own mistake. Youve even experienced it. Even though high stressful situations do cause a high percent of relapse, there are still many cases that doesn't happen.

B. Some people dont come out with a case of anything till WAY later in life, and it leaves and never comes back.

C. I had just beaten my OCD, and was still vunerable. To top it off My girlfriend broke up with me after a year, and my father went into full blown depression/GAD out of nowhere at the age of 43. I had to be his rock. During all this my OCD didnt kick back up, which even I was slightly suprised.


Yes for some people its lifelong, for most people here it will be controllable for however long, and for others they can be beaten all together. People are born or can develope chemicle imbalances from genetics or surroundings, most OCD experts even recognize OCD isnt always genetic. This reiterates that these chemicle imbalances can be fixed. For good.



BTW, engineer, with your full honesty, how would the thought of your Xanax being taken away from you right this day forever feel? What do you think you would do- Ontop of the possible mental/physical withdrawel symptoms. Its not something im really asking you to answer, just something to think about.


I may seem challenging, but all in all were working towards the same goal and just want to help people, and actually agree upon most of the vital points here.

[ocdengineer]

If someone were to take it away form me now I would have major withdrawls and would be pretty miserable for awhile, however if I were to taper off I think I would probably be OK without, but it would be a harder existence.

We do agree on pretty much everything.  I tried to retract my last post last night because I didn't want to come off as saying that there is no hope for people with OCD.  I think I did sound that way though and for that I apologize.

Your story is so similar to mine it is ridiculous.  I had childhood onset of OCD and was able to get through it with the help of my parents.  There were no drugs back then and they really didn't know what was going on inside my mind, but just being there to talk with was extremely helpful.  By the 4th grade I was OK.  I lasted until I was 21 and, like you, got into some recreational "chemicals" LOL, that brought it all back with a vengeance.  I suffered for a couple years and using health and meditation was able to get over the OCD again.  I have no doubt that it is possible to live OCD free.  I have done it twice.  I am now 29 and have a daughter who is 15 months old and another due in a month, so stress is through the roof.  This is when it gets hairy for me.  I was OK living a single life with as few real commitments as possible, but being married and having children forces you to take on some major responsibilities that can bring back the old OCD which was the case for me.  Granted, I knew exactly what was happening and was able to cut it off at the pass so to speak, but it is still there. 

This is not to say that people don't completely get over OCD, because it does happen, but most people just learn to manage it better.  So, my advice for what it is worth is to always remember all of the valuable information that you are learning now and remember to apply it to all aspects in your life.  You may never have to worry about it again, but if you do, you will have the tools to combat it.  the worst thing you can do is forget.

Last night I sat in bed bummed thinking about what I said and how negative it must have sounded to you.  I even talked with my wife about it for awhile and she assured me that you were 18 so you probably wouldn't listen to anything I said anyway.  LOL.  OCD is definitely manageable.  I live a great life with a great family and that is proof in itself that it is possible.  The tools I used when I was in 2nd grade and in college I still use today and they are still just as effective.  I think elements of OCD are genetic and I think emotionally stress can bring that trait to life, so minimizing stress can help and exercise, meditation, CBT.  All of that will go a long way towards management of the disorder.  I think you are on the right path.

Take care,
OE

[apple]

Hi Kim

Finding the right meds is a tricky business.  I also found no help in SSRI"s. Actually here is a list of meds, each working on different parts of the brain...it may help to print it and take it to your doctor.  http://www.anxietyzone.com/index.php/topic,223.0.html

I found the benzo Clonazepam to really help me when having an anxiety attack, and yes I get grumpy/angry during an attack.  However I found that the anti-psychotic Zyprexa to handle my anxiety quite well..actually I hardly use the benzo much now.  I do not know if this type of med is ok for children, I guess only your doctor can tell you.

Maybe someone else has a better idea, I tuely hope you find what your son needs.  It must be awful not having the cure to make it all better. Good luck and let us know how things go. 

[Alprazolam]

Even though we are way off topic now engineer-


I find that so amusing! We have EXTREMELY similar stories....About as close as two strangers could get in my book.

And we actually do agree on everything, I know I come off as challenging or combative, and although I am 18 I do listen and soak up as much knowledge and as many outlooks as I can :) But to be honest after reading what you wrote I had somewhat expected that you would come back and recorrect what you said. I knew by your knowledge that you just probably worded a few things wrong and it came out of context. Don't even worry about it, water off a ducks back.


I know exactly what tools to use and when to use them....And so far I havn't needed any perscribed meds! When I finally was able to get professional help I was out of the office in 5 minutes because I had already gotten such a grip on it with all the tools I needed....So I vowed that when I did get through it I would try to reach out and help as many people as I could.


I wish you the best of luck, which I doubt your going to need, and I will see you around the forums :)